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Why do we struggle?

Discussion in 'Domain Research' started by humble pie, Jun 11, 2015.

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  1. humble pie United Kingdom

    humble pie Banned

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    sounds like one has found a hole and now digging..

    and

    You can't just advise people who are looking to make a name for themselves online to choose a name like diy.com as if it has some kind of benefit.

    Why not?

     
  2. Domain Forum

    Acorn Domains Elite Member

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    IWA Meetup
     
  3. humble pie United Kingdom

    humble pie Banned

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    I might want to start a flyer design service - any ideas what domain could I use?
     
  4. Retired_Member42

    Retired_Member42 Retired Member

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    You're just taking the thread to a whole new level of ridiculous now :) Goodnight x
     
  5. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    OK you don't understand or agree that


    A short descriptive service/product/industry domain like

    Lights dot co dot uk

    can be a massive short cut to company/service, recognition.


    That's fine, no problem.
     
  6. martin-s United Kingdom

    martin-s Well-Known Member

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    It's an interesting debate. The really shocking thing is to go back through my RSS feed of sales on DL and see which sites have been developed and how they're doing.

    Amazingly most of the reasonable priced sales haven't been touched - they're just sitting in a portfolio or have been forgotten.

    kites.co.uk
    upholstery.co.uk

    A few EMDs have been developed from 2014 though.

    privatejethire.co.uk
    websitetemplates.co.uk
    fancydressoutfits.co.uk
    contractfurniture.co.uk
    fingerprintjewellery.co.uk

    None of them rank on the 1st page of Google for the exact match term, but that's not because of Google's algorithm, it's because no backlinks have been built.

    privatejethire.co.uk - 1 BL
    websitetemplates.co.uk - 10 BL
    fancydressoutfits.co.uk - 3 BL
    contractfurniture.co.uk - 1 BL
    fingerprintjewellery.co.uk - 3 BL

    More interesting are some of the other 1st page ranked domains for the same searches:

    www.privatejetcharter.co.uk (2nd - 6.7k BL)
    and www.privatejets.co.uk (9th - 71 BL)

    www.freewebsitetemplates.com (3rd - 849.9k BL)
    and www.freewebtemplates.com (5th - 1.3m BL)

    www.fancydress.com (4th - 26k BL)

    www.morriscontractfurniture.co.uk (1st - 36k BL)

    www.fingerprint-jewellery.co.uk (1st - 2.2k BL)
    and www.preciousfingerprintjewellery.co.uk (8th - 435 BL)

    It isn't that EMDs are punished by Google - it's that they aren't a free ticket anymore. You still have to do all of the SEO work everyone else would have to (though some will come naturally because of your name).

    EMDs aren't about rankings, they're about branding and memorability with a side effect that Google wants to be able to rank you for your (legit) company name.
     
  7. BeachLife United Kingdom

    BeachLife Active Member

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    This is where domainers disagree with the entire marketing industry. Which has better recall: a. paydayloans.co.uk or b. sunny.co.uk?

    I'm pretty sure domainers will vote for a. Marketers will vote b.

    Go to any branding agency and tell them you want to spend money trying to brand a generic term and they will tell you not to.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2015
  8. martin-s United Kingdom

    martin-s Well-Known Member

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    In that scenario, I would agree that b has better recall, but also a higher cost barrier to entry while building the brand. ("Sunny? WTF do they do?")

    Plus, the better comparison would be loans.co.uk vs sunny.co.uk. Who wins then? For me it's the EMD.

    Shorter and simpler are the key attributes. Relevancy is then a great bonus.

    What about diy.com vs homebase.co.uk?
    Or booking.com vs trivago.co.uk
    Or motors.co.uk vs pistonheads.com
    Or moneysavingexpert.com vs hotukdeals.com
    Or ancestry.co.uk vs genesreunited.co.uk
    Or weather.com vs metoffice.gov.uk
     
  9. martin-s United Kingdom

    martin-s Well-Known Member

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    Take a random word - "whisky". Let's imagine you want to buy someone a bottle and it's an industry you know nothing about, so you put that into Google and the results you get are:

    www.thesingleton.com
    www.whiskyshop.com
    www.whiskyforeveryone.com
    www.masterofmalt.com

    I'm betting the most popular choice would be whiskyshop.com because it does exactly what it says on the tin.

    It still has recall, but it's also effective for first time visitors and the click-conversion would be much higher on that basis.
     
  10. martin-s United Kingdom

    martin-s Well-Known Member

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    If you get a customer your marketing is working. If you get a WTF, your brand could have been better.
     
  11. martin-s United Kingdom

    martin-s Well-Known Member

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    OK, so then..

    Search for "cordless screwdriver" and you get diy.com and homebase.co.uk. Which do you choose?

    Search for "hotels in london" and you get booking.com and trivago.co.uk. Which do you choose?

    Search for "used cars" and you get motors.co.uk and pistonheads.com. Which do you choose?

    The success of a brand is made up of 101 things. Domain relevancy is definitely one of those things for a lot of markets.
     
  12. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    The truth of this argument really is a moving target.
    Especially when you introduce free search engine rankings, which as we all know can change overnight.
    I think a more level playing field would be to assume you pay for search engine ads.
     
  13. Retired_Member42

    Retired_Member42 Retired Member

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    Keyword.co.uk and Brand.co.uk are on par domain wise when it comes to ranking for Keyword. No penalty, no additional weight, they're treated equally. Google cannot afford to give weight in this way. If I put a site selling Vodka on Whisky.com, it doesn't make it a good match for someone searching for "Whisky" does it? Of course not.

    In terms of link building, if your intention is to rank for "Keyword" then you'll trip filters if your domain is also "Keyword.co.uk". You could push a lot more link weight for your keyword at Brand.co.uk than Keyword.co.uk and if both domains are on par, why would you choose the latter?

    In terms of what determines your rank, it's on site content, links and brand metrics. For arguments sake let's say 20% on site content, 50% links and 30% brand metrics (although the brand metrics figure is increasing it's impossible to put a value percentage on it, but it's significant). To get that 30% additional weighting you have to have people talking about your brand, sharing your brand, searching for your brand and specifically clicking through to your website after the search has performed. These are signals that tell Google you're a reputable brand and this is what forms the brand dominated top 10's you see in search. This obviously poses a problem if you chose to use Keyword.co.uk and Google has no way of knowing if the people who put in "Keyword" into their search box want to find your site or are looking for the product/service in general. The same for mentions around the web and on social media. There is no way to differentiate between them.

    So all things considered, domains are on par, you can't be as aggressive with your link tactics and you're losing that 30% of total weight because your brand signals/metrics are diluted as a result of your domain choice.

    In terms of recall, sure, an EMD in some cases may prove to be more memorable but my point is that you're not going to have the customer base to recall it if you're getting outgunned in the search engines as a result of the above.

    As for what people click when they're presented with the results. I think it's obvious that people have preference. Sure a select few may look at the domain. Some look at titles, descriptions and some look for a brand they've used before, regardless of the domain. But again, my point is that you're not going to be there in the first place unless you consider the above. The same goes for the keywords they choose, we all Google things differently. Some search DIY, some search power tools. Some search car rentals, some search hire a car. You have to try and cater to all keywords, all preferences to achieve the maximum total traffic. Not limit yourself to the select few who search for "Keyword" and are a fan of matching domains.

    Of course we can all list examples of EMDs that rank, of course there are going to be some but in comparison to strong brands they're a serious minority. They've either so much history that they've become a brand in their own right or they're in a niche that doesn't have any clear cut brands so that the above "30%" doesn't come into the equation.
     
  14. gimpydog United Kingdom

    gimpydog Active Member

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    Yes, the brands have taken over the serps & the registrars are taking over the domains.

    Yun ye probably got his timing just about right. They do say the time to get out is when the venture capital buys in.

    I wonder how many here remember ultsearch?
     
  15. humble pie United Kingdom

    humble pie Banned

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    very true.

    Its a tough slog now for anyone starting out.

    It always fascinates all the latest newbs leaving uni at 21 today with their programming/marketing/media degrees etc, what they make of the Internet (esp. serp wise) its so different to 2000 and even just 5 years ago 2010, in the standards, quality of sites, social media, not to dissimilar to phone evolution I guess.

    I keep meaning to go and ask a load of 6th former's about domains and to see how their using the net in general for some research.
     
  16. martin-s United Kingdom

    martin-s Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree with you on this when dealing with quality websites and quality content. What evidence do you have?
     
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