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Who's Holding BTC?

Discussion in 'The Bar' started by Hay, Aug 18, 2020.

  1. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member

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    Something does underpin its value, a multi-billion decentralised Server network....you know ....like the internet...that seemed to take off a bit. It's a significant barrier to entry for new crypto currencies.
     
  2. Domain Forum

    Acorn Domains Elite Member

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  3. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    thanks, so for now the cost of replicating it is a barrier to new entrants. Certainly when any pyramid scheme that I looked at in the nineties, that was always the argument for guaranteed success . And always a comparison that had been an overwhelming success.
    Still nothing actually underpins the currency because as I understand it one doesn't get shares in the "multi-billion decentralised server network" should the currency revert back to zero.
     
  4. Highway

    Highway Member

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    The value of BTC is generally underpinned by the cost of the electricity people are willing to spend to mine it in the first place. Every time the value of BTC collapses, large sections of the mining network are switched off because at those times it's cheaper to buy it on the market than it is to mine for new blocks. When the parity cost of mining versus buying is reached the market focus changes... more mining competition means blocks are harder to mine and therefore more expensive in terms of the processor burn of electricity. When bitcoins popularity goes up, there's more competition, the algorymth reacts to this and makes it harder to solve the "puzzle" you need to mine blocks, so the electricity required increases globally to keep up with this.

    This is also one of the reasons for the locations of the mass farms... China has many of them because china still burns coal for electricity and they have so much coal that wholesale electricity is really cheap. It's also why things like hydroelectric powered mining is so popular privately, as once you've bought or built the facility the sea doesn't charge you for the waves and tides ;) Hence the buying or disused renewable power stations in places like Australia.

    So in short the Bitcoin network's entire value is based on the wanton destruction of resources that could be used for things like heating for the poor. It's becoming an outdated dinosaur now (although it has been immensely valuable in that it has created a new asset class and a new global economy)... There are much better alternatives on the horizon which I believe will oust Bitcoin in the end, because ultimately things are only worth what people will pay for them, and as was discussed earlier in the thread, people value national currencies that have no tacit underpinning real world value, it's basically a consensus of trust.

    With my best wishes ;)
     
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  5. ian

    ian Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you are saying, but by definition, gold is a pyramid scheme too; the scarcity is controlled by governments alone to maintain value levels; they could flood the market with fresh gold if they wanted, until a time when mining it is no longer cost efficient. Bitcoin on the other hand is distributed at a designed volume until there is no more and this cannot be manipulated; equally Bitcoin has first mover advantage with a distribution and technology hard to match (similar to the Internet). Where they are similar is that both have alternatives, gold has competing assets silver arguable has more value; minerals in space may eventually be mined. They all do well from being a superior asset.

    One thing no one can deny or ignore however is that fiat is being constantly printed, debt increasing, and deflation resulting in the value of our money being worth a few ticks less each year. Gold, Bitcoin etc, are all hedges against this.
     
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  6. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    Gold of course is finite and that's why i don't think comparisons stand up. The argument seems to be that nothing can compete with bitcoin although no suggestion as to what it's for other than as a profit making investment. But my question is say, in the event of governments bringing in laws to outlaw it as an investment what would happen to an investors money. Nothing has sadly occurred to diminish my fears from outset that this is simply a very elaborate and engenious ponzy scheme and with the last ones to be mined in the very distant future and most lucrative returns being predicted to be in 10 or 20 years I suppose we will just have to wait and see, while the price goes up and down as new people are drawn in and the savvy get rich.
     
  7. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member

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    I have zero interest in converting or recruiting you or anyone else.... Don't like it ... Don't buy it or use it. I'm here to share my knowledge for those that are not anti. I don't want to get into a boring debate or tell you how much money I've made
     
  8. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    With respect, you don't know if I hold any, so a little presumptuous based on my initial question, what underpins any guarantee on the bitcoin currency. The fact that it has all the underlying qualities of a pyramid scheme is just my opinion. When you've seen it before you can't help but relate it.
     
  9. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member

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    So... Do you hold... As per thread title?
     
  10. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member

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    Do you hold BTC?
     
  11. Murray

    Murray Well-Known Member

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    The value of anything is supply vs demand

    We are all entitled to think something is precious or worthless but our opinion wont change what it's being exchanged for

    People in countries like Turkey and Venezuela have experienced severe inflation in their own currencies and seem to appreciate having Bitcoin as an option to store wealth; they might have preferred something more traditional like gold but I imagine in a crisis physical gold is hard to get hold of

    Bitcoin unlike other traditional virtual assets can't be frozen and is more difficult to confiscate by the state, perfect in a time of fear
     
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  12. Murray

    Murray Well-Known Member

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    With centralised banking governments can change and impose new laws very easily

    If they wanted to confiscate gold or bitcoin to enforce that is a totally different animal
     
  13. ian

    ian Well-Known Member

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    It bemused me that Bitcoin it considered the villain by some, yet are happy with governments stealing money from you. I subscribe to the freedom Bitcoin has from this regime.

    Each to their own opinion though, I respect them; I'm in it for the long term gains and consider BTC to have a far reaching road ahead.
     
  14. ian

    ian Well-Known Member

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    Freedom from inflation and deflation for a start; you can't just print more. Regulations can only force a direction to an extent; I think world governments have by now realised that Bitcoin cannot be stopped.
     
  15. lazarus

    lazarus Super Moderator Staff Member

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    No holder of Bitcoin is ever going to agree to that and the more you hold the more you disagree.
    It's the Turkey voting for Christmas thing. And there is no logical reason for a need to create more.

    It's true that people are uncomfortable with China hosting 65% of the hashing power. But it would still would be an impossible task for the Chinese government to organise a 51% attack as so many miners are operating illegally.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
  16. Highway

    Highway Member

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    Anything that *can* be regulated through the application of KYC / AML rules is doomed long term. That's not really much of an opinion, it's just factual. Gold is truly fungible, and unfortunately, Bitcoin is not. And no, I'm not at all interested in gold, other than as an accessory.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  17. Highway

    Highway Member

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    How exactly do you think that the Silk Road bitcoins got chased down by the feds? BTC's ledger is like dinosaur footprints. BTC is going to have to go legit in order to be paypal etc friendly... can you imagine a dark web user trading their BTC through paypal and not worrying about a knock on the door in however many years? Bitmex got raided recently and Arthur Hayes might never get out of prison once the thing is done ;) And that was supposed to be a legit CEX
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
  18. JMI

    JMI Active Member

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    I think there is still tremendous upside potential to Bitcoin in the short to medium term, but the problem is Governments are now strongly looking at their own digital currencies. Take China, they have already rolled out their own digital currency in four major cites and are going to use it the Beijing olympics in 2022.

    China has a very strict regime they're not going to be happy about people taking money out of the system into cryptos, they could easily make the use of Bitcoin illegal in the future.

    Once Governments around the world all begin to adopt their own digital currency I see this as a big problem as they won't want Bitcoin as competition and it could become illegal. I expect the Bitcoin lovers to strongly disagree :) but its valid problem right around the corner for today's cryptos, ignore and carry on with a utopian Bitcoin world vision at your peril..
     
  19. dee

    dee Well-Known Member Acorn Supporter

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    I don't think the common thinking is that it will replace currency. It's not nearly nimble enough, and transaction fees can be high. But as the original, and most trusted (well.... known at least ) crypto, its becoming a store of wealth, similar to a phsyical store of wealth such as gold or silver etc.
     
  20. JMI

    JMI Active Member

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    You must be kidding right? The people don't get a say in this, one dream of all governments is to kill "cash" and turn everything digital. By doing so overnight they can tax, monitor and control of 99% of the population, how else are they going to get out of this endless money printing mess compounded with 0% interest rates until the cows come home.
     
  21. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    I would have thought a store for wealth would have to have some guarantee that it could not reduce to zero by someone else removing your money in the future. If you put your wealth in at 18000 and a year later it was 3000 that's a big hit to take , why would anyone want to put hard earned legally made money into such a scheme for any other reason than to make enormous profits with predictions of a price of 500,000 in the future.