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Corona please read very important

Discussion in 'The Bar' started by dougs, Mar 15, 2020.

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  1. Siusaidh

    Siusaidh Well-Known Member

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    Interesting point about how long the government could enforce lock down-style restrictions.

    I do think there could be a risk from delinquency.

    My hesitation with softly softly is that it concedes lives in the hope of saving lives later on.

    I'd prefer sustained stringent methods here and now, with community onside to enforce it as well as police.

    The reason to include other parties in a 'unity' approach is it widens the mainstream support and reduces law-breakers to a small number on the margin.

    I couldn't care less about the political differences between Conservative and Labour at the moment. This crisis is beyond politics.

    The important thing to my mind is 'working together' against a common enemy.

    The enemy isn't socialism because the measures the present government brought in last week are the most socialist measures ever taken in this country.

    With regard to enforcement, it is a very sad indictment of our society if people just don't care if they spread death to others, and at that point I'm afraid enforcement should be as relentless as it has to be. Policy shouldn't be governed by a fear of delinquents running amok, as if our country is like a weak school teacher who can't keep control of the classroom.

    Policy needs to be driven by actual death statistics if we do or don't lock down, and then a clarity that it WILL be enforced, whatever it takes.

    You say people couldn't be forced to limit their actions for more than 3 or 4 weeks.

    Why not? Are we really that pathetic? Why not 3 months, and another 3 months later in the year if the disease kicks back a second time?

    In wartime, you need to think Machiavelli. You wage war to win, no matter how ruthless you have to be. But not ruthless about letting people die. Ruthless against little shits if they think they can just do what they want, because they lack any care for others.

    These people out there right now, ignoring the "advice": they are laughing in the face of health workers, and the community at large. It's like a few kids setting fire to a classroom, and putting other people in danger, and the teacher says I "advise" you not to do that.

    If we factor in other people's unreality, then I think we may be surrendering the fight for a significant number of people's lives. It's as obvious as can be, that the more people stay in doors, the fewer people will spread it to first 2 others, then to a further 2 others, and then the 4 spreading it to 8 others etc.

    So I'm afraid I think the measures taken so far are too soft... and I'm a social liberal in my views... that includes the socially liberal idea of protecting people's lives.

    This situation is an exceptional emergency, and ruthlessness is essential. It always is in war. Not, in this case ruthlessness for its own sake: ruthlessness out of compassion.

    I don't care if the Conservative Party has a large majority. It's simply stupid politics to isolate all your decisions, so you end up taking all the inevitable blame yourself further down the line. If I was Boris, I would get as many political rivals on board as possible, so that THEY all get indicted too, where failures occur. And from the point of view of the Nation itself, it is far better if we see unity in the political class over this shared crisis. You need statesmanship.

    All politicians are servants of the Crown, and in the end, the Crown is guardian of ONE nation. This is a time where we need to be one nation.

    Just my views, and your own views are interesting - thanks for the discourse.
     
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  2. Domain Forum

    Acorn Domains Elite Member

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    IWA Meetup
     
  3. Murray

    Murray Well-Known Member

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    I just went to a large tesco

    Bit quieter than on a normal Monday afternoon I'd say

    The shelves were as full as I've seen them for two weeks which is good

    Saw probably twenty people 65+ shopping, which isn't good, but maybe they don't have anyone that can shop for them and delivery slots are a long wait


    The self-serve tills have been spaced out now, one active, one inactive to keep people further apart

    But it seems a bit pointless when everyone is passing you down the aisle like normal; I tried to be a bit more aware of distance and give people space, not worried for myself but don't want to pass on anything
     
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  4. diablo

    diablo Well-Known Member

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    It's far too simplistic to say we can project forward fairly easily based on deaths separated by a two week period.

    That's not to understate the magnitude of the problem we face, but to point out we are a very different country with very different challenges ahead.
     
  5. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member

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    In case it saves you making a trip into the "danger zone", here are some of the retailers and other businesses that have either already closed their premises across the UK, or will do so at the end of the trading day this evening...

    John Lewis, Waterstones, Primark, Kurt Geiger, New Look, Zara, Topshop, Topman, Dorothy Perkins, Burton, Wallis, Miss Selfridge, Evans, Calvin Klein, Disney Store, HMV, Timpson, McDonalds, Nandos, The Body Shop, Harrods, Harvey Nichols, Michael Kors, Oasis, Lego, Abercrombie & Fitch, Monsoon, Liberty London, the British Heart Foundation, Clarks, Ikea, TK Maxx, Apple, Selfridges, Fenwick, Calvin Klein, Sweaty Betty, Boden, Oxfam, H&M Group, River Island, Gap, Reiss, Card Factory, Subway, Debenhams, The Works
     
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  6. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member

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    Masks have to be changed once they get damp, which happens with disposable ones after a few hours at most because people breathe into them (of course!). The moisture traps bacteria and (hopefully most of the) viruses, so you have to throw it away before it dries out again.

    The mask does a reasonable job of stopping others' bacteria, viruses (and of course pollen - great for hayfever) but it does an even better job of stopping what you're breathing out from contaminating others if you yourself happen to be infected. Again, you don't want it to dry out and have all that nasty stuff going everywhere, no matter which side of the mask it's on. So bin it first.

    In Japan, China and other places where people wear masks much more commonly than in the UK, people will wear them an absolute max of one day, but quite often only one journey (and put on a fresh one for the return at the end of the day). In normal times, masks will be sold in packs of 3, 5, 7 or more at very cheap prices in Japan. Probably about 50p-70p per mask in bulk. NOTE: These are not normal times, as I hope you'd expect. Masks are becoming scarce there, as everywhere else.

    I should add that the Japanese government has stepped up the supply, and is securing the production of 600,000,000 disposable masks a month. Don't have the figures for the UK, but it will be a tiny, tiny fraction of that.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
  7. newguy United Kingdom

    newguy Well-Known Member

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    It's concerning if there is truth to this comment about thousands of people STILL coming to the UK from Italy, Iran and China (thousands per week possibly) with it not being reported on: https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/fnbfvz/flights_from_italy_iran_and_china_are_still/

    flight example from today: https://www.heathrow.com/arrivals/terminal-4/flight-details/AZ206/23-03-2020


    Maybe there are rare valid reasons to still be making these trips, but with the advice given to us all to basically stay at home, it doesn't seem right that so many more people with the virus may be winging their way here each and every day.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
  8. LCHappy United Kingdom

    LCHappy Active Member

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    Some of them will statistically require emergency treatment. For this alone they should be banned.
     
  9. newguy United Kingdom

    newguy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think it's very concerning for all manner of reasons
     
  10. CatchDrop

    CatchDrop Active Member

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    Yesterdays figures weren't comparable to Italy, hopefully this means their figures won't be projected onto the UK.

    Of the active cases shown here https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/
    There is apparently only 20 in the UK that are serious or critical, whereas in other countries it seems much worse, Italy has 3000

    Is it reported differently in the UK compared to the rest of the world, or is the UK some way off 'the peak' ?
     
  11. diablo

    diablo Well-Known Member

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    The head of the World Health Organization (WHO) says the coronavirus pandemic is "accelerating".

    Speaking at a press briefing in Geneva, WHO Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said: “It took 67 days from the first reported case to reach 100,000 cases, 11 days for the second 100,000 cases, and just four days for the third 100,000 cases.”
     
  12. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member

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    We are testing much, much fewer people than many other countries. That might explain some of the discrepancies? Also, we have not yet run out of ventilators (though some individual hospitals have). Maybe cases only become "critical" once they can't be allocated adequate hospital facilities? I don't know how Worldometers defines the term.
     
  13. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member

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    Greggs is closing from tonight.
     
  14. bonusmedia

    bonusmedia Well-Known Member

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    Worldometers must be incorrect or lack data. It's not possible we only have 20 critical cases at the current rate of deaths.
    Maybe we're not reporting that number or they haven't got access to it
     
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  15. diablo

    diablo Well-Known Member

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    UK coronavirus death toll rose to 335 today, falling further behind the comparison projection, thankfully.

    That's not to say figures couldn't go the other way in the future.
     
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  16. bonusmedia

    bonusmedia Well-Known Member

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    If there are still 7000 passengers a week arriving, that's still way more than 99% reduction.
    There have definitely been a lot of repatriation flights and you can't ban citizens from coming home.
    I don't know about screening but I hope they did improve it.
    That Reddit post is really 'a mate of a mate said' though so does need more evidence.

    Obviously we don't want it coming in through ports but it's already widespread in the population here.
    Statistically, for most countries, people arriving here now are more likely to catch it from us than the other way round.
    Hoepfully we're being careful about not exporting it.
     
  17. diablo

    diablo Well-Known Member

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    Love Greggs. Iceland do a frozen range of Greggs classics.
     
  18. newguy United Kingdom

    newguy Well-Known Member

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    That's certainly a good thing, I just hope these are all repatriation flights, 'if' not much in the way of screening upon arrival. I agree that the post may not be entirely accurate, though these flights do appear to be taking place, so it doesn't seem far off the mark.

    I appreciate your point that it's effectively already here anyway, so what does it matter, but then that's also an argument that could be used by those ignoring the advice used to reduce the impact of the virus. It's a tricky balance I suppose, as I certainly wouldn't want people not to be able to return home, if they do indeed live here.

    Really I think the government are feeling their way through this at present, and the herd immunity comments that have all but disappeared are something of an unknown one way or the other, as we don't know how long immunity lasts for. At least the longer vulnerable groups can stay safe, the longer we have to find effective treatments.
     
  19. CatchDrop

    CatchDrop Active Member

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    Exactly, the testing is incomparable to other countries, but if the critical figures were comparable it would give some indication of whats to come.
     
  20. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member

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    The data on Worldometers appears only half-updated for the UK today (I believe they update every time they get new information). The number of deaths is correct at 54 (correct, as in "it matches the official reports") but I can't believe there are just 154 new cases of the coronavirus unless they've completely given up testing. I suspect that's just the figure for Wales, or something, and that the rest of the UK's test results haven't been bundled together yet.
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/
     
  21. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member

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    It's not just taking the very old, and the very ill :(

    upload_2020-3-23_17-43-49.png
     
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