Caught a domain - WHOIS anomaly

[Darren]

I dont consider it either, lets see how this goes.

 

[Systreg]

It looks like Domain Monster have stopped renewing booked domains now

I had one domain booked with them which is dropping today, that didn't renew just after midnight like the others previously have, and as it's registered to a business, I was wondering if it might be one of those ex business names that sometimes don't drop on the expected day, checked Companies House and the business is still active.

I wanted to check to make sure it wasn't just that name not being renewed, so I booked another one with Domain Monster after midnight which was on the HEARTINTERNET tag, before, they would have automatically renewed that straight after booking it, but they didn't on this occasion, it dropped normally and I just caught it myself.

 

[Skinner]

Perhaps they are working on a way to better word it, the hard part is nominet say you have to give the custom the option to allow the name to expire and registrar NOT be allowed to transfer, as well as being allowed to expire and the registrar take control, as wel as renewing at the last minute.

Getting this decision within the required time frame, won't be easy, and the default to transfer isn't allowed to be hidden away in small print has to be an active choice.

 

[Skinner]

I don't think they will, its more likely these will slide on by unless someone complains, since reversing them would only serve to delete the names ?

If so is it reasonable to expect Nominet to reverse all the expired domain name transfers made by that the registrar during the period where they probably didn't obtain explicit consent?

 

[timter51]

Come on hands up, who spent hours these last few days trawling through droplists for domains on MONSTER, 123-REG, HEARTINTERNET and WEBFUSION worth backordering on DM? Can't have just been me Looks like it was time wasted...

 

[Skinner]

It opens up the issue of, given there are potentially dozens of offenses, if nominet accept these as being wrong, surely the penalty would increase.

The question I would need justifying is, what happens to the domains in question ?

1, returned to previous owner?

2, cancelled fcfs ?

3, other ?

The easiest solution would be to sanction HEG, and in light of no complaints, leave the status quo.

How would you deal with this ?

The rules are the rules and if Nominet don't reverse those transfers then can registrants have confidence that when registrars ignore registry rules there won't be actual repercussions? Not doing so makes a mockery of the accredited registrar status because those registrars are supposed to be more trustworthy, aren't they?

 

[bulkcorn]

........
One could alternatively pay £12 to Nominet to tag change the registrar and renew it at the new registrar.

Neither of these points relate directly to the issue at hand which is registrars taking over expired domain names.

Edwin was asking about justification of last milliseconds to renew. If one discovers on the date of deletion that the registrar had not renewed (in error or deliberately) a domain you had paid it to renew, those last few minutes that would cover the last milliseconds do very well matter!

I didn't change tag for that one domain at Crazydomains, I moved over 100 names from them.

 

[bulkcorn]

It opens up the issue of, given there are potentially dozens of offenses, if nominet accept these as being wrong, surely the penalty would increase.

The question I would need justifying is, what happens to the domains in question ?

1, returned to previous owner?

2, cancelled fcfs ?

3, other ?

The easiest solution would be to sanction HEG, and in light of no complaints, leave the status quo.

How would you deal with this ?

Return domain to previous owner. Give Registrar serious warning, and make it public + £1000 fine on Registrar given to Registrant.

 

[Murray]

Return domain to previous owner

If they didn't renew it, I doubt they will want it back?

 

[Edwin]

I think the snag is this line in the Registrar Agreement:

"You must always allow a Registrant to renew a domain name (and maintain the registration in their own name) at any point up to the point at which we would otherwise have cancelled and deleted that domain name"

Nominet probably need to clarify the section that I've bolded to make it clear that they're talking about calendar days, not seconds i.e. "any point" applies up to the beginning of the "great unknown" that is deletion day itself, but not into that day.

As I already explained in my previous post, they can't literally mean "ANY point" in any case, because nobody outside Nominet is privy to the exact instant of the drop so if they held Registrars to the strictest meaning of "any" then the entirety of the verbiage about taking control/allowing renewals is pointless since Registrars would have their hands tied until the domain is deleted (i.e. the exact point of deletion) by which time there's nothing else they can do with the domain since it's not on their tag - it's gone.

You have to try and see the situation from every perspective to be able to suggest a workable fix - and part of that process is to realise that Nominet would never have intentionally have drafted an "impossible to fulfil" set of stipulations, even if you begrudge the result of their drafting. It's poor wording, but I doubt very very much that it's down to malice.

The "solution" is to focus laser-sharply on the "explicit consent" issue - which is a completely valid point - not to chew over the bones of whether some domain that was deleted at 02:34:00 should have been renewable at 02:33:59 by a "psychic" registrar who should have known better and waited a few hundredths of a second more before transferring the domain into their own name because it had not yet reached "any point up to the point" before deletion.

 

[Edwin]

So explain to me EXACTLY when a registrar can take over a domain name (assuming the pre-requisite that they have explicit consent to do so - if they don't, then the "when" is irrelevant)

Because by your definition, there's never a "right time" for them to do so.

 

[diablo]

No earlier than thirty days after the date of expiration. Anytime from that point in time up until the unknown time when the domain name is cancelled and deleted by Nominet.
(from iPhone)

+1

Without explicit consent there is no right time. With it, there should be no need to wait until the first second of the 92nd day.

 

[Edwin]

But then the registrant could always argue they're intitled to have the name back, since by your reasoning there is no way of determining with absolute certainty when it would have been deleted had it been deleted, and consequently no "cutoff point" beyond which the Registrar is within their rights to deny the original registrant and keep the name.

No, there needs to be a SPECIFIC, indisputable cutoff point, not the current wishy-washy point that fluctuates over the space of a 24 hour period (and as you point out, under certain unusual circumstances longer). That way, there's no possibility of confusion nor of any comeback later should a registrant wake up to the loss of their domain name "too late".

And yes, I am assuming that the registrars in question are holding off on the transfer into their own name until what we should probably start explictly calling "deletion day" (to give it its own designation, something that has been sorely lacking until now) precisely because until then the registrant could renew which would force them to hand the domain name back again (the registrant agreement is at least completely clear on that point)

So the process should be clarified and tidied up something like the below*:
- Between 30 days before and 30 days after expiry: registrar can seek EXPLICIT consent to retain the domain rather than see it deleted
- First 30 days after expiry: registrar only processes renewal requests
- 30 days after expiry: cutoff point for registrars to obtain explicit consent. If no such consent has been received, they cannot do anything to the domain name except renew it on behalf of their client at the client's request
- Up until 23:59:59 on the night before deletion day: registrar should continue to honour renewal requests (unless they can PROVE beyond reasonable doubt that their system for renewals takes X time minimum, in which case that time should be 23:59:59-X)
- From the first second of "deletion day"** onward: registrars who have obtained EXPLICIT consent are no longer required to honour renewal requests, and can transfer the names to themselves or to a third party if they have not already done so under a "reversible" process between day 30 and deletion day.

* Errors and omissions excepted
**Nominet tend to signal system work that affects domain deletions in advance. If such a notice is given, then "deletion date" for the affected domains should be the new deletion date as defined by the notice, with all other timeframes adjusted accordingly.

NOTE: the above is only my interpretation of the situation. It feels almost foolish posting this disclaimer, but I just don't want anyone to be under the illusion that I somehow have any say in what Nominet actually does.

Edited to fix a mistake in the chronology of the "fix" I suggested - if you're reading the emailed updates to this thread you may have seen the earlier incorrect version.

 

[Edwin]

Edwin, it might be easier to define such a cut off point for retrieval by the registrant at ninety days after the date of expiration. On day ninety one the domain name cannot be retrieved by the registrant. Also if explicit consent hasn't been granted by the registrant prior the WHOIS clears to just "pending deletion" and at some point after, usually sometime randomly on day ninety two, the domain name is deleted by the registry.

The problem with the above might be registrars taking over domain names at 23:59:59 on the ninetieth day after the day of expiration because the registrant won't be able to renew it a second later. Nominet still wouldn't know whether explicit consent had been granted.

Nominet states that: "Such consent must be obtained no earlier than 30 days before the date on which the domain name is due to expire, and no later than 30 days after the date on which the domain name expired."

Therefore, there are AT LEAST 60-62 days during which the registrar knows with 100.00% certainty whether they have explicit consent or not, since they are not allowed to obtain that consent past the 30th day after expiration. So there's no mystery whatsoever, nor any "grey area". Either a domain reaches the 30th day after deletion with explicit consent obtained, or that consent has not been obtained in which case it's "tough luck" as far as the registrar getting a look-in is concerned.

There may not be a huge amount of transparency, but in theory Nominet should be able to audit (selectively/randomly/whatever) that "explicit consent" any time from day 31 after expiry through to deletion day, should they so wish.

 

[bulkcorn]

Nominet states that: "Such consent must be obtained no earlier than 30 days before the date on which the domain name is due to expire, and no later than 30 days after the date on which the domain name expired."
........

The above and the fact that up to deletion (unknown) time, a Registrant should still be allowed to renew, means the safest position for a Registrar is to let the name drop, and then (attempt to) catch it.

I wonder why registrars don't want to let the name drop and attempt to catch :lol: :lol: