Domain registrant - declaration to over-ride ownership

[DarkSky]

Hi,

I know you can pay nominet £10+VAT to change the ownership of a domain.

However all you're really doing is changing a field in a database, which for purposes of law, defines the current owner of the domain.

On this basis, would a signed and dated piece of paper, stating that the domain now belongs to <newperson> not be satisfactory in proving ownership (thus avoiding giving nominet £12 for automated data entry).

The reason this has come about is because someone i know is taking a .co.uk off my hands (free) and I'd like the domain to be in their name, although it's not enough of an issue for either of us to cough up £12 for the privy.

Any thoughts?

 

[monaghan]

I doubt it would as it is the registrant's responsibility to ensure the details they provide are correct, so unless you officially notify Nominet via their process the details haven't been changed.

 

[DarkSky]

I doubt it would as it is the registrant's responsibility to ensure the details they provide are correct, so unless you officially notify Nominet via their process the details haven't been changed.

Sure, but excusing nominet for a moment, i.e. if there was a legal issue with the site running on the domain (cant imagine there ever would be, but you never know), the new owner could "prove" they own the domain to whoever the other party is.

Although this did get me wondering, if one can register a .co.uk for just £4, why is this fee so high? I mean, the domain could drop and be registered by the new owner (forgetting drop catchers for the moment!) for £4, in their own name.

 

[retired_member36]

Is not paying the £12 really worth it?

What if, this friend develops a site that has dodgy content on (copyright, or other bad stuff). The person on the nominet details is the one thats going to get contacted, and then you will have to explain that you give the domain away etc etc, is it really worth it? (by no means saying that will happen, just an example)

if the £12 fee cant be justified, why dont you go halfs and pay £6 each! and be done with it.

 

[monaghan]

The fee is £10+vat, whether it is justified or not is irrelevant, it is the process that has to be followed to transfer the domain to a new registrant.

You could delete the domain from your Nominet account and get the new registrant to register the domain in their own right, it seems a lot of effort to save £10, is the time you've spent on this worth more than this?

 

[PaulGregory]

Do the document. State that your friend not only is the true owner of the domain but has your authority to act on your behalf to modify the domain.

The question is, who is such a piece of paper satisfactory to?

I've been working with .uk domains with inaccurate WHOIS since the late 90s.
Control is everything.

Three situations where your friend will need accurate WHOIS records are:
a) if Nominet complain that it's wrong (I've only ever seen them notice that the registrant isn't listed elsewhere, and even then as Registrar I was allowed to fix it for free)
b) if he applies for an SSL (even then, he might need this in a different name than his own, so he might need to do another £12 change)
c) to sell it on some marketplaces

One situation where he doesn't:
1) to use the domain for website and email

Situations in which a piece of paper is useful:
* to complete a Dispute Resolution (incurring much higher fees) to correct the WHOIS.
* in case someone challenges your friend's modifications of the domain.

I think the most important thing for you to do, if you can without affecting your other domains, is to change the email contact on this domain to an email address your friend controls. Then if it came to it, he could complete the Nominet transfer without needing you.

If he has access to sign in and pretend to be you, he can transfer it to another party. He can even pay the fee with his own card - there's no requirement for that to match. I've acted on behalf of clients in this way.

Really I think you should only be looking at the avoidance of ownership change as a short-term thing, perhaps while your friend gets a company structure together and creates a legal entity that will actually own it, or simply while your friend uses it to earn enough to pay the fee.

 

[tifosi]

If you decide that your time is worth say £25/hr then the time you spend messing about writing and passing pieces of paper and then testing their validity is costing you the price of the transfer.

Then again the time you've spent on the thread has costed you the same!

The database entry is the basis for the Nominet contract between them and the registrant. One reason I'm against registrars transferring the domain to themselves during the renewal/expiry period.Nominet's procedures will have to be followed in any event. It also assertains the new registrants email address and registrant details which are required parts of the contract.

All this used to be paper/form based until a couple of years ago, so that was Nominet's 'cost recovery' fee for processing the form. The proposed new registrar agreement has facility to reduce this for registrars but I would assume single registrants will be unchanged.

 

[DarkSky]

Do the document. State that your friend not only is the true owner of the domain but has your authority to act on your behalf to modify the domain.

The question is, who is such a piece of paper satisfactory to?

I've been working with .uk domains with inaccurate WHOIS since the late 90s.
Control is everything.

Three situations where your friend will need accurate WHOIS records are:
a) if Nominet complain that it's wrong (I've only ever seen them notice that the registrant isn't listed elsewhere, and even then as Registrar I was allowed to fix it for free)
b) if he applies for an SSL (even then, he might need this in a different name than his own, so he might need to do another £12 change)
c) to sell it on some marketplaces

One situation where he doesn't:
1) to use the domain for website and email

Situations in which a piece of paper is useful:
* to complete a Dispute Resolution (incurring much higher fees) to correct the WHOIS.
* in case someone challenges your friend's modifications of the domain.

I think the most important thing for you to do, if you can without affecting your other domains, is to change the email contact on this domain to an email address your friend controls. Then if it came to it, he could complete the Nominet transfer without needing you.

If he has access to sign in and pretend to be you, he can transfer it to another party. He can even pay the fee with his own card - there's no requirement for that to match. I've acted on behalf of clients in this way.

Really I think you should only be looking at the avoidance of ownership change as a short-term thing, perhaps while your friend gets a company structure together and creates a legal entity that will actually own it, or simply while your friend uses it to earn enough to pay the fee.

Great post, thank you.

 

[DarkSky]

If you decide that your time is worth say £25/hr then the time yu spend messing about writing and passing pieces of paper and then testing their validity is costing you the price of the transfer.

Then again te time you've spent on the thread has costed you the same!

The database entry is the basis for the Nominet contract between them and the registrant. One reason I'm against registrars transferring the domain to themselves during the renewal/expiry period.

To you and previous posters regarding the cost, it's not so much the cost itself that is the issue, of course it isn't. But as I mentioned before, if one can drop the domain and new owner register it for £4 (plus get a years reg!), I cannot help but feel *ripped off* and that is what I have a problem with. I guess you could call it principle, I call it frugal haha.

FWIW the other party has paid the £12 since this thread was started, lol.

 

[monaghan]

Seems a lot of effort to save £10!

 

[DarkSky]

Seems a lot of effort to save £10!

Don't know about you, but I can type up a document with two names and addresses, plus a short declaration in a very short amount of time, probably less than a minute and probably less time than it has taken to fill in nominets registrant transfer form.

 

[monaghan]

It doesn't matter how quick you type, you've still not completed the Nominet process and transferred the ownership

 

[DarkSky]

That's what this thread was about.

 

[bulkcorn]

Don't know about you, but I can type up a document with two names and addresses, plus a short declaration in a very short amount of time, probably less than a minute and probably less time than it has taken to fill in nominets registrant transfer form.

Very true! :lol:

 

[namealot]

If they do something illegal first port of call is whatever is registered at nom. That’s who door they’ll come a knocking, Good luck showing them a bit of paper drawn up by a layman especially if they cannot find the other party or if they do they deny it ? What about taxman if they sell goods services etc and go bust they may not rip you off but could leave you in the sh+t intentionally or not?

If the names not worth paying the fee for it’s not worth developing or having at all?

 

[DarkSky]

There's certainly a lot to consider, but as this only covers who the domain is registered to, I am not sure this means you are automatically liable for anything connected to it. You might be, by default, I don't know, but if there is supporting evidence, i.e. emails confirming transfer (control) of the domain, hosting registered to their selves etc, I'm inclined to think the "bit of paper drawn up by a layman" would have some influence.

 

[DarkSky]

If the names not worth paying the fee for it’s not worth developing or having at all?

I covered the issue of cost before

 

[monaghan]

There's certainly a lot to consider, but as this only covers who the domain is registered to, I am not sure this means you are automatically liable for anything connected to it. You might be, by default, I don't know, but if there is supporting evidence, i.e. emails confirming transfer (control) of the domain, hosting registered to their selves etc, I'm inclined to think the "bit of paper drawn up by a layman" would have some influence.

Would be interesting defense - I'd love to see someone address the judge with "well it saved me £10 in transfer fees"

Whether you agree with the process or not, whether you agree with the charges is irrelevant, you have agreed to it when you purchased your domain

To quote from the agreement you signed up to at registration or renewal - http://www.nominet.org.uk/uk-domain...terms-and-conditions-domain-name-registration

22. If you want to transfer your domain name to someone else, you must, as well as any general requirements in this contract:

22.1 use our current published transfer process; and

22.2 make sure that the person taking over the domain name accepts what remains of this contract in full.

23. If you do not transfer your domain name (as needed by condition 22) there will be no valid transfer of this contract and domain name, and no document or agreement attempting or claiming to transfer the domain name or this contract (or both) will have any effect.

Seems quite black and white to me

 

[PaulGregory]

OK then, so how do domain name rentals work? Are there not many valid situations when the person who is entitled to use the domain is different to the person to whom it is registered?

I see the situation in the OP being a transfer that has not really fully completed, or is just happening really slowly. I fully agree that if the new user is making money with it, they should pay the £12, regardless of whether they are likely to end up in court. But £12 need not be a barrier to giving a domain away in the short term.

 

[monaghan]

Domain rental is not transfer of the domain though, you are simply allowing someone else the temporary rights to use your domain. If you transfer the domain to the renter, you would risk loss of the domain. I guess they would draw up an abuse clause in the rental agreement to cover any issues caused by the renter in a similar way to car rental or property rental