EU Referendum

"Jumping off a cliff!" (from the guardian - really?).
Yes, that's a phrase that would certainly drive fear in some people.
Thanks for clarifying.

 

Condemning ourselves to irrelevance? Were we irrelevant before we joined the EU? I don't think so. The way things are headed though Britain will be irrelevant if we stay in the EU, we'll just be a region in the EU superstate, dominated by Germany.

Europe may have "made us" when the time was right to join, but times change, and the current EU and the way in which it is heading isn't what people voted for back then and it's the reason why we're having this referendum now, because it's not what people want. The biggest reason most people who will vote to remain will do so because they think it's better the Devil you know, not because they want to be in the EU.

 

There is an important difference between "risk" and "fact" which is being completely missed here. There are risks on both sides. Some will happen to a greater or lesser extent, and some won't happen at all.

It seems that the only benefits of remain are to avoid the potential risks! Well bugger that. The risks of staying in are just as visible if you're willing to see them.

A different, less intrusive Europe would be fine by me. But the Europe we're in at the moment is getting gradually more and more instrusive, and will continue to do so.

The EMU block require that - because a single currency requires political and financial alignment, cooperation, and central control.

 

Is that the same S&P who, in 2008, were giving a 'AAA' rating to US mortgage backed securities because they had a conflict of interests?
Justice Department and State Partners Secure $1.375 Billion Settlement with S&P for Defrauding Investors in the Lead Up to the Financial Crisis

Guardian readers & BBC viewers might be surprised to learn that we didn't go to war with the 'Nazis'. We liberated Europe from the Germans and much of the credit for that lies with Russia.

 

A woman in an abusive marriage was warned against leaving, she would not have a roof over her head, all her meals and enough money to buy clothes and run a car. The fear caused her to stay for years suffering physical and emotional abuse in return for the security her marriage brought. Finally one day she plucked up the courage to leave and two weeks later she met and married a rich man who treated her well. The moral of this story is that we become institutionalised because of fear of leaving.

 

I'm torn on how to vote in this referendum.

Instinctively I've always been pro-EU and scoffed at the tabloid scare stories of bendy bananas and 'red tape' and all that stuff. If I'm being honest, I'd have to admit that this is probably because I'm centre-left and so for me, EU legislation has seemed more benevolent than it perhaps might have if you happen to be on the right of the political spectrum. I like the greater emphasis the EU has traditionally placed on, for example, workers rights, stringent health and safety standards and especially rigorous food standards.

In a nutshell, I think that it has tended to be more socialist (or at least more social democratic) than Britain. My sense is that, left to our own devices, Britain as a mostly conservative nation would water down much of this and end up closer to the USA, with more power shifted to corporations and bosses and less power with the worker and consumer.

Having said all that, I have to confess over recent years I've become deeply unhappy with the failures of the EU, in particular, their handling of the migrant crisis and the bullyboy tactics used on Greece and Italy. I'm also under no illusions about the sheer scale of waste and how technocratic it's become.

Right now I'm probably siding slightly more with remain albeit reluctantly. But I can easily change my mind in the course of the day, and change it back again by teatime! Sometimes I think this decision should be left to people more informed than me.

 

Yes, that's the one, what of it? They are widely used internationally, that AAA rating on the mortgage backed securities enabled that pile of crap to be sold. Similarly, if they decide to downgrade the UK's AAA it will cost us all.

I'm not sure what this is about - are you criticising me quoting the Guardian in regard to history, or the 300 British and European Historians they quoted?


One comment to the leavers, I have yet to read any concrete statement of how leaving will improve our country? One thing is for sure though, the improvements that you foresee will come at a very real economic cost to the UK.

 

This is far too considered and even handed for this thread. Get out now!

 

-

 

You said...

I am suggesting that that is not true.

Maybe, but probably not. The other two large credit-rating agencies have already downgraded us &, as far as I know, the sky has not fallen in.
Moody's credit rating for the United Kingdom was last set at Aa1 with stable outlook. Fitch's credit rating for the United Kingdom was last reported at AA+ with stable outlook

Interestingly, S&P downgraded the US from 'AAA' to 'AA+' on 5th August 2011. Since then, the DJI has risen about 58%.

I was pointing out the correlation between these two statements...

Imho, neither the BBC nor the Guardian can be considered to be impartial in this matter & they have a tendency to airbrush history.

 

Gotta love Google....



But leaving the UK for tax reasons is just fine & dandy!

 

Will it? 100% certain on that?


We stay, ours may (note how I said may, not will) be downgraded, but given the Greece, Italian, Spanish and Portugal monetary issues, Eurozone is heading for another downgrade anyway.

Lets start with the fisherman, who will no longer be restricted by quotas form Europe, and we can kick the Spanish out our territorial waters, meaning a British industry that has virtually been destroyed by Europe, can be rebuilt.

Control over immigration. Not in the racist way, but currently, if 20,000 (insert European country) people have passports (or travel docs) they can come to the UK and work. No questions asked. Invited or not, skilled or not. Just a note on this ----- Its been allowed for quite some time, yet we still have skills gaps according to reports, so stopping it won't really have any impact.

Sovereign control, of British rule. Currently, if we want to deport someone for not being allowed here, they can go as far as the European courts, who can over ride the British ones. Lets take back control there. But that's not all, the European courts are frequently over riding our own courts, and this shouldn't be allowed.

We wouldn't have MEPs, as there would be no need for them.

We would have more control over imports, tenders etc, meaning that more can be given to British companies, rather than British having having to compete with EU for British projects (the status quo may well continue, but at least if we leave the EU, we'll have the options, which we currently don't).

And thats just off my head, Sure there are loads more if I take 10 mins and think about them.

 

I was genuinely surprised to learn that 70% of EU fishing grounds are in UK waters, but UK fishermen get only 14% of the quota.

Why don't the SNP back the Scottish fleet?

 

I think the don't knows should just ask themselves one question. Do they mind being a state in a Brussels controlled super state. A similar institution to the former soviet block, though slightly more democratic. That's the worst case scenario and if they do not mind that, then it's a stay in. If they want to live in a country with it's own autonomy governed by a mandate by it's people, then it's an out. Simple as that.

 

Haha, I'm lost as to why they didn't hire you to frame the wording on our referendum forms

 

I think almost everyone accepts that EU reform is needed. Speaking as a sceptical remainer, I have a question to the more certain remainers: do you really believe that (to quote the campaign group of the same name) "another Europe is possible"? And if so, how on earth can the UK ever hope to achieve meaningful reform when the majority of other member states don't agree with us?

My fear is that I'm fooling myself about our capacity to reform the EU in a more democratic direction - I just don't see how that's possible without ever closer political and fiscal union, which of course is something the UK doesn't want. I'm starting to think that the idea of staying in and seeking reform is doomed. (Told you I'd change my mind by teatime, folks)

 

Because it's not in their political interests to do so.
The SNP's ultimate aim is to try and get a 2nd Scottish referendum.

They have placed their hopes on a Leave Vote result (even though they are officially in the Remain camp) in the EU referendum with the hope most of Scotland will have voted remain.
Then they can claim rights to a 2nd Scottish Referendum on the basis the vote to leave the EU went against the will of the Scottish people.
(not that I'm convinced it will).

It's all a bit *ucked up! - But that's politics for you.

 

One thing's clear from this thread (assuming it's broadly representative of the wider UK): regardless of the outcome on referendum day, there are going to be a LOT of disgruntled people angry at not having got "their" way! It will be interesting to see how that feeds back into politics in the next 5-10 years i.e. how that plays at the ballot box.

 

BTW, the deadline to register to vote in the referendum is 7 June 2016.
http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum

(After that, you can have all the opinions you like, but you'll have no way of influencing the result!)

 

It's been hugely divisive, which isn't always such a bad thing in Politics IMO.
Certainly don't ever want 3 parties virtually the same as we have had in the recent past.
As long as we don't shoot off too far in one direction, we will be just fine.

My main problem with this referendum is that very little work is being achieved by the Government to do anything but fight their corner.
The sooner it is over, the better.