Need to buy a domain for client but...

[MrFrisbee]

Hi,

I hope this is not inappropriate to post, however, I have been asked by someone to try to buy them "play*lister*.com" domain which is registered by showing as for sale at domainnamesales.com. (Remove the * from the domain - not sure if this helps to "hide" someone finding it but I am just trying to be careful about who might see this. I hope this does not trigger a lecture, but I am going in a bit blind on how to best do this.)

When I show interest through the site, I get asked to make a minimum offer of $3,000 but it is not worth that (at least not to my client).

Any ideas how to best approach them without all the domainnamesales.com nonsense or is this the only way? I am not sure if the $3,000 is a "this is the minimum we will take" or a way to block certain offers.

Any ideas what I might offer for this domain?

Any tips welcome.
Thanks
Charles.

 

[bensd]

playlister.co.uk is free to register

 

[viceroy]

Hey

Good luck with that one.
A bit old but still relevant: http://www.acorndomains.co.uk/domain-name-wanted/17816-has-anyone-manage-buy-name-administration-inc.html.

 

[Edwin]

Bad luck, you're flat out not going to be able to buy it - time to find a Plan B. It's owned by one of the largest domain portfolio holders in the world, and his organisation doesn't sell cheap. The $3,000 is almost certainly not the asking price (which will be higher or MUCH higher) it's a simple filter that lets them only look at enquiries from companies with at least "some" budget...

Until recently, they were posting their enquiries on their blog - they get hundreds every single day so you can see why they're in no hurry to let any particular domain go...
http://domainnamesales.com/blog/

 

[wb]

I think it depends how far away your offer is going to be, as it may not be out of the question for them to accept less.

The same registrant sold BreakdownCover.com recently for $25,000. Even though it's not a global term, it seems very cheap to me.

Where does it mention about the $3,000 minimum? As far as I can see on the page below it only has a message field, which wouldn't be possible to block offers automatically.

http://domainnamesales.com/domain/playlister.com

 

[MrFrisbee]

I think it depends how far away your offer is going to be, as it may not be out of the question for them to accept less.

The same registrant sold BreakdownCover.com recently for $25,000. Even though it's not a global term, it seems very cheap to me.

Where does it mention about the $3,000 minimum? As far as I can see on the page below it only has a message field, which wouldn't be possible to block offers automatically.

http://domainnamesales.com/domain/playlister.com

Once you register initial interest for the domain you get emailed a link to the page asking for offers of $3K or more.

I have registered the .co.uk for them anyway (did it today so may not show for a few hours) - just need to asses what the value of the .com is to the client. It is not high at the moment but the price being asked will no doubt go up as soon as they launch something.

Anyway, lets see what happens. I was trying to get a feel for how the land lies - seems it may be hard to get unless they are happy to offer at least $5k perhaps.

I seem to remember that you may have rights to a domain if you have a company registered with that name and a trademark too.

Any other tips welcomed.

Charles.

 

[wb]

I seem to remember that you may have rights to a domain if you have a company registered with that name and a trademark too.

That won't be the case in this instance, it would be an attempt at reverse domain-hijacking.

 

[MrFrisbee]

I just managed to post an email request to them and within 30 seconds I had the reply below...


Hello Charles,
I spoke to the registrant and the lowest he will go at this point is $16,000.00 USD based on a quick completion. Prices honoured for 7 days.
Best
Dan

I wrote back to say that they must have been sitting with the client to get a reply that quick (also suggested they put a delay on their auto responder).

Told them that they were out by more than a factor of 10 but if they were willing to make a sensible suggestion I would go back the client to consider it.

 

[MrFrisbee]

That won't be the case in this instance, it would be an attempt at reverse domain-hijacking.

What would make you say this?

In a previous role I once (about 12 years ago) started a UDRP and actually got the registrant to not only return the domain, but they paid us to take it back (covering some costs).

Charles.

 

[Edwin]

I wrote back to say that they must have been sitting with the client to get a reply that quick (also suggested they put a delay on their auto responder).

There is no 3rd party "client" behind Name Administration Inc.'s names - they own what they're selling, so it's super-easy for their sales team to bounce a price back to you (e.g. using a pre-prepared semi-automated email based on their private price list) as they don't have to get anyone else involved in the decision-making process.

It's hardly rocket science. We used to do the same thing (on a much smaller scale) before we started posting all our prices publicly: I had an offline Excel file with the prices for everything and I just pasted the relevant price into my form email reply, which meant we got back to an enquirer inside a couple of minutes if I happened to have been refreshing my email.

I suspect they've got things a lot more automated than "an Excel file" but you get the idea...

 

[Edwin]

In a previous role I once (about 12 years ago) started a UDRP and actually got the registrant to not only return the domain, but they paid us to take it back (covering some costs).

To have ANY hope of winning a UDRP you have to have rights BEFORE the registration of the domain name under dispute. So for example the following would be an attempt at reverse domain hijacking:

January 1, 2011: Entity A registers the domain name exampleexample.com
March 1, 2011: Entity B starts trading under the name "example example" and then files a UDRP against Entity A

Barring a time machine, there's no way that A could have known about B's supposed "rights" because B didn't have any rights at the time that A registered the domain name!

In this case, you're talking about filing a UDRP in 2011 against a domain name that was registered in 2003, on the basis of a service your client is (I assume) going to set up now - crazy...

 

[wb]

What would make you say this?

In a previous role I once (about 12 years ago) started a UDRP and actually got the registrant to not only return the domain, but they paid us to take it back (covering some costs).

+1 on Edwin's comments above

 

[MrFrisbee]

To have ANY hope of winning a UDRP you have to have rights BEFORE the registration of the domain name under dispute. So for example the following would be an attempt at reverse domain hijacking:

January 1, 2011: Entity A registers the domain name exampleexample.com
March 1, 2011: Entity B starts trading under the name "example example" and then files a UDRP against Entity A

Barring a time machine, there's no way that A could have known about B's supposed "rights" because B didn't have any rights at the time that A registered the domain name!

In this case, you're talking about filing a UDRP in 2011 against a domain name that was registered in 2003, on the basis of a service your client is (I assume) going to set up now - crazy...

It is not quite like that, I am being a bit ambiguous on dates etc just in case. Suffice to say, some of what you say is true, but not all of it. I suspect you are more right than wrong though (it all comes down to the "bad faith" bit really).

Their "auto responder" just pissed me off as it was a blatant lie and they lose credibility emailing like that and thinking that the people offering to buy domains are idiots.

I have informed the client and they can work out what the best option is - they have other issues to resolve anyway, this is just one of them. I wish people would do basic planning in advance (what do we want to call it? is the domain available? does someone else have it (or similar) as a trademark? are three good questions before you go too far). They had the chance to do this in 2008! Why leave it until now?

Charles.

 

[foz]

Their "auto responder" just pissed me off as it was a blatant lie and they lose credibility emailing like that and thinking that the people offering to buy domains are idiots.

The response wording and email is auto (apart from the price insertion), human eyeballs view each email that comes in and a reply is sent accordingly. Its just the way its setup to handle the volume of inquiries on 700,000+ domains. Not just on Name Administration properties.

 

[Edwin]

Their "auto responder" just pissed me off as it was a blatant lie and they lose credibility emailing like that and thinking that the people offering to buy domains are idiots.

They really don't. As I said, their volume of offers is several hundred per day, every single day - and Frank Schilling (guy behind Name Admin) is probably THE most respected guy in the whole domain industry, bar none. You really need to get your facts straight - perhaps a bit more Googling first would help?

 

[foz]

Frank Schilling (guy behind Name Admin) is probably THE most respected guy in the whole domain industry, bar none.

Second.

 

[sdsinc]

Fortunately you secured the .co.uk.
Get ready to use it.
Frank (Name admin) is nice but shrewd. I think their prices are most often quite high - even when considering they are aiming at end users, not resellers.
C'est la vie.

 

[MrFrisbee]

OK, so Frank S seems to be an articulate, astute and respected businessman, it does not change my view of their email/abrupt/rude process. If they are too busy, get more staff - they have the money. It is no different to Apple having to answer stupid questions from some users - it goes with the territory of making lots of money.

The point here is, if you want someone to buy something for $16k you should be a bit more forthright in your sales technique - no matter who you are. It would do no harm to demonstrate how one might arrive at this value (market or traffic led) with a basic report too (which can be pretty automated).

Yes, if you have an empire based on domains that is worth over $500m, you can do what you want. But, for all his nice talk Frank is also hurting the small business owner from registering his company name on-line and that just feels wrong from an ethical business perspective. He is just waiting until a big player comes along with deep pockets.

In this case, my client has been using a business name for about 5 years and they were stupid enough to never try to buy the .com domain. They did not just look at the list of domains and go thats a good one I will try to grab it for a cheap rate.

As an aside, he is probably better off selling the domain to the rights owner anyway. Should the domain ever be sold to another party who does NOT have prior rights to my clients, it can then be argued that my client (lets say it was the trademark/wordmark owner) can now use UDRP or trademark infringement or unfair competition etc to try to get the domain back from the new owner. So the new owner may have paid $50k for it but would soon find out that there is a real threat to that ownership/use. I appreciate this is complex (and expensive) but in some legitimate cases (which I believe this is), a bird in the hand for FS is probably worth something.

BTW, my wife of 17 years is a very senior lawyer in this field and has been involved in transactions at both ends of the spectrum from paying $500k for domains to refusing to pay more than $10k but telling the owner as soon as they sell or use they (or the new owner) will be blocked due to trademark infringement.

I hope this does not degenerate into a newbie bashing but some of my comments are based on prior information (perhaps a little knowledge is a dangerous thing).

Charles.

 

[Edwin]

The point here is, if you want someone to buy something for $16k you should be a bit more forthright in your sales technique - no matter who you are.

Actually, the opposite is true. If you rephrase that as "you flat out don't care about a sale UNLESS the buyer's willing to pay $16k" (which is almost certainly the case here) then there's zero upside and 100% downside in any hand-holding of shallow-pocketed buyers who were never really "potential customers" in the first place (you can't be a potential customer if the "potential" was never there for you to turn into a customer). That's just "cost" without any associated return.

The right client won't need a song-and-dance to get them to spend $16k because the right client SEES that value... At the same time, even a 100 page report stuffed with expert analysis, comparable sales, market trends and the kitchen sink isn't going to open the wallet of somebody only willing/able to pay $2k for the same domain name.

But, for all his nice talk Frank is also hurting the small business owner from registering his company name on-line and that just feels wrong from an ethical business perspective. He is just waiting until a big player comes along with deep pockets.

No, it's called "a smart business model". Just wish we had the resources to take a similarly laid-back approach...

 

[foz]

When you say "rights owner" what does this entail? I am having difficulty finding a TM for the term "playlister" at both ipo.gov.uk & uspto.gov.