Buying a co.uk - do you mention the .uk?

[invincible]

Maybe and I certainly wouldn't have done this with an expensive domain/one I wanted to build a brand on...I'm just interested to see how sedo transact/respond.

However, the nominet Whois page does clearly state the right to the .uk currently belongs to the .co.uk. If I buy a house with a right of way over a neighbours property, I would expect that right to be transferred even though the sale agreement doesn't specifically state it is included.

IMHO you'd be damn stupid to expect such a thing without employing a solicitor to ensure that right of way was stipulated in a relevant contract.


(from iPhone)

 

[archibel]

IMHO you'd be damn stupid to expect such a thing without employing a solicitor to ensure that right of way was stipulated in a relevant contract.


(from iPhone)

Of course you would have a deed covering the right of way and the solicitor has an obligation to check it's validity as part of the conveyence.

But they would NOT check it was still in place at the moment when contracts are exchanged.

 

[invincible]

Of course you would have a deed covering the right of way and the solicitor has an obligation to check it's validity as part of the conveyence.

But they would NOT check it was still in place at the moment when contracts are exchanged.

Easy solution; don't buy the damn house.

 

[diablo]

However, the nominet Whois page does clearly state the right to the .uk currently belongs to the .co.uk. If I buy a house with a right of way over a neighbours property, I would expect that right to be transferred even though the sale agreement doesn't specifically state it is included.

I wouldn't rely solely on the whois.

As Nominet make clear in all documentation relating to the .uk, the right rests with the Registrant of the .co.uk.

 

[invincible]

I wouldn't rely solely on the whois.



As Nominet make clear in all documentation relating to the .uk, the right rests with the Registrant of the .co.uk.

There are even disclaimers in the Nominet WHOIS output. One should be upfront and rely on what has been agreed in writing, IMHO.

Should a potential purchaser of a domain name expect it to come with twelve months of free name server hosting and/or a fully functioning web site too? Of course not, unless it is stipulated in the contract. The same should apply in respect of expecting a domain name to come with a Right for something else, including the right to register another domain name. Although the time limited Right is offered exclusively to the current registrant of a particular *.uk third level domain name ("3LD"), it's a Right for an additional domain name that, if exercised within the stipulated time period, requires a potential registrant to enter into a new three way contract with a registrar and the registry for an entirely new, and seperate, .uk 2LD.


(from iPhone)

 

[Rob_F]

Maybe and I certainly wouldn't have done this with an expensive domain/one I wanted to build a brand on...I'm just interested to see how sedo transact/respond.

However, the nominet Whois page does clearly state the right to the .uk currently belongs to the .co.uk. If I buy a house with a right of way over a neighbours property, I would expect that right to be transferred even though the sale agreement doesn't specifically state it is included.

If you clicked "buy it now" on a .co.uk, and there wasn't anything in the sellers description that specified it included the .uk, you bought the .co.uk, nothing more.

Yes, the right to the .uk belongs to the .co.uk, but the .co.uk belongs to the seller until the domain is transferred via Nominet. If the seller exercises his right to register the .uk before then, the .uk belongs to him.

- Robin




Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[invincible]

I think we all need to be mindful about using words such as "belong" given that domain names are not property.

Although I'm sure I've been guilty of it, we don't buy a domain name. We purchase the right to use it for a given period of time. Nominet, the registry, through a three way contract with a registrar, in turn, licence us to use that domain name. I find as soon as I remind myself of this, thinking about many issues surrounding domain name legalities becomes much easier.

I must find a solicitor who can cite some examples of case law that similarly reflect the situation we have of existing domain names having rights that allow the registrant to exclusively licence another domain name.


(from iPhone)

 

[Retired_Member42]

We should all just stick to .com's

 

[Rob_F]

I think we all need to be mindful about using words such as "belong" given that domain names are not property.

Although I'm sure I've been guilty of it, we don't buy a domain name. We purchase the right to use it for a given period of time. Nominet, the registry, through a three way contract with a registrar, in turn, licence us to use that domain name. I find as soon as I remind myself of this, thinking about many issues surrounding domain name legalities becomes much easier.

I must find a solicitor who can cite some examples of case law that similarly reflect the situation we have of existing domain names having rights that allow the registrant to exclusively licence another domain name.


(from iPhone)

Trust you to split hairs



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[stellar73]

The legal argument for and against a buyer having some sort of 'statutory' right to .uk (at the point a co.uk sale is agreed) is very confusing, as seems evident from the conflicting opinions in this thread.....All the more reason that Sedo really need to get their act together and clarify their policies. It's great that Domainlore has done this already but the longer Sedo fail to act the more sales they (and we) are going to lose.

If I was a prospective buyer on Sedo there's not a snowball's chance in hell I'd make a co.uk purchase now.

I sent them a message a little while ago regarding what their plans are in this respect.....Has anyone already contacted them on this and got any sort of sense out of them? Maybe we all need to bombard them with messages in the hope that something filters through?

 

[scooter]

The legal argument for and against a buyer having some sort of 'statutory' right to .uk (at the point a co.uk sale is agreed) is very confusing,

Already very hard for Sedo to police as now not every name for sale will have the rights to the .uk

Currently, 1 x dropcatcher is catching the co.uk while another gets the .uk

So we have 2 different owners. One may put theirs up for sale on Sedo, the other may not.




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[Stephen]

constructive trust

If you clicked "buy it now" on a .co.uk, and there wasn't anything in the sellers description that specified it included the .uk, you bought the .co.uk, nothing more.

Yes, the right to the .uk belongs to the .co.uk, but the .co.uk belongs to the seller until the domain is transferred via Nominet. If the seller exercises his right to register the .uk before then, the .uk belongs to him.

- Robin

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

When the sale of .co.uk domain is made due to the "unique" nature of domains the seller enters into what is known as a "constructive trust" and must act in the interests of the buyer and that means not reducing the rights of the .co.uk by registering the .uk for themselves (if the right exists).

So if not registered before the sale agreed and it is not mentioned specifically in the contract, the seller should not expect to register the .uk for themselves after the sale is agreed and then try to make double money.

As the seller could technically register the .uk domain and break the trust, the seller would be liable for damages to the buyer.

 

[Rob_F]

When the sale of .co.uk domain is made due to the "unique" nature of domains the seller enters into what is known as a "constructive trust" and must act in the interests of the buyer and that means not reducing the rights of the .co.uk by registering the .uk for themselves (if the right exists).

So if not registered before the sale agreed and it is not mentioned specifically in the contract, the seller should not expect to register the .uk for themselves after the sale is agreed and then try to make double money.

As the seller could technically register the .uk domain and break the trust, the seller would be liable for damages to the buyer.

I'd have to disagree with you there, Stephen.

This is the Sedo contract, the one all buyers sign up to when they agree to buy a name...

2. Purchase Object and Purchase Price

The Purchase Object of this Purchase and Sale Agreement of 06/14/2014 is the Internet domain name example.co.uk, and when included by the Seller as indicated on the Make Offer page, the related Website.

The Purchase Price shall amount to £650.00 GBP including any statutory tax that may be incurred (for instance VAT).

3. Warranties and Representations

a) The Seller guarantees that they are the owner of the aforementioned Purchase Object and may freely dispose of said Purchase Object. Furthermore, Seller warrant that the Purchase Object is not encumbered by the rights of third parties and that to date, they have not received any warnings of potential litigation or preliminary injunctions against the Purchase Object that have not been disclosed to Buyer.

b) The Buyer understands and agrees that it is their sole responsibility and duty to perform all necessary due diligence before entering into this agreement to buy the Purchase Object, including research of fitness for particular intended uses, trademark clearance, or anything that could inhibit their future use and enjoyment of the Purchase Object.

c) Buyer and Seller shall be liable to each other only for damages that are based upon their failure to perform the necessary steps to complete this transaction, intentional wrongdoing or gross negligence and shall not be liable for claims seeking consequential or punitive damages.

- Rob

 

[Stephen]

German Law?

I'd have to disagree with you there, Stephen.....

- Rob

Rob

Thanks for quoting the rules from Sedo contract.

But my understanding of the subject, is the rules I'm referring to our pure contract law which wraps any transaction.

Under clause 5 of the Sedo sales agreement.

c) This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of Germany, without giving effect to any choice-of-law or conflict-of-law provision or rule (whether of Germany or of any other jurisdiction) that would cause the application of the laws of any jurisdiction other than Germany.

Sedo are slow as mentioned in clarifying the position of .uk themselves as Domainlore have done.

Also if the right to .uk exists when you buy you have done your due diligence., that is why elsewhere
I suggest a Nominet Whois lookup on .uk string to show rights with .co.uk and it has a timestamp and save as file or print screen.

Then you should be protected under the "constructive trust".

Hopefully Nominet will provide some guidance on this area (sales via Sedo and dealing direct) before somebody eventually has to go to court or DRS, to find out the expensive way.

Stephen

 

[scooter]

b) The Buyer understands and agrees that it is their sole responsibility and duty to perform all necessary due diligence before entering into this agreement to buy the Purchase Object, including research of fitness for particular intended uses, trademark clearance, or anything that could inhibit their future use and enjoyment of the Purchase Object.

It could be argued due diligence was taken. As soon as you press "buy now" the seller also enters a contract. I would think you would have a good argument that it deifinitely includes all rights as the current owner had not registered before you pressed the "buy now" button.

There you go Invincible, maybe the first court case




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[scooter]

Domain name:
bluemovies.uk

Right of registration:
bluemovies.co.uk


As soon as I press the "buy now" button, the seller has entered in to a contract to sell me the co.uk and with it, I would argue definitely comes with the rights to the .uk

It is/should just be a formality to pay the money and the .co.uk name transferred to the new owner. The sale is made and contract binding (imo) as soon as you hit the "buy it now".



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[Rob_F]

I guess we will have to wait until it goes through the courts for confirmation, if it ever does. For me it is an obvious, not included unless specified (if bought via Sedo).

From a moral standpoint however, I think registering the .uk just before transferring the .co.uk is wrong. I won't be doing it.

- Rob

 

[diablo]

Domain name:
bluemovies.uk

Right of registration:
bluemovies.co.uk


As soon as I press the "buy now" button, the seller has entered in to a contract to sell me the co.uk and with it, I would argue definitely comes with the rights to the .uk

It is/should just be a formality to pay the money and the .co.uk name transferred to the new owner. The sale is made and contract binding (imo) as soon as you hit the "buy it now".


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A domain name cannot register another domain name - the whois is shorthand for the right resting with the Registrant of the .co.uk domain name not the .co.uk itself.

There is also no "pure contract law" that is all-encompassing. German contract law differs from English contract law. Courts interprete those laws.

Whatever the legal position, the expense of going to court over anything but a premium domain name makes any barrack room legal advice given here worthless.

The sensible and obvious thing to do is to ensure that you are buying both the .co.uk and the right to register the .uk before parting with your money.

 

[Systreg]

Completely agree with Rob, if a .uk isn't stipulated as being for sale with the .co.uk, then you're buying the .co.uk on it's own.

Personally, if I sell a .co.uk on here or Sedo that has rights to the .uk, the buyer gets the rights to it when buying, or, if I've already registered the .uk version, they'll get both on the same transfer.

 

[Edwin]

I agree, falling back on contract law is unrealistic even if you're right in that you would still have to win a dispute if one arose, and that could cost >> the domain purchase price.

In other words, the law only helps you if you can either A) successfully put the frighteners on to stop someone doing "bad things" or B) afford to get that law asserted in court

Far cheaper to get a contract drawn up that you can reuse, specifying explicitly what happens to the .uk after a sale.