Access Limits Policy (proposal)

[Whois-Search]

Have you read this:

http://www.nic.uk/digitalAssets/10983_Access_Limits_Policy.pdf

Which can now be found on the PAB agenda from 10th Jan Next Meeting

See 3.1 Proposed policy

The level of limits should be set per system according to one or more of the following principles:
o No differentiated limits
o Additional limits can be purchased
o Limits are calculated based on the number of domain per tag/tag holder
o Limits are calculated based on the number of new registrations per tag/tag holder.

Which "systems" are we talking about here? Automaton? DAC? Whois2?

So does that mean if your Pipex your going to get more DAC lookups than anyone else? Or we can buy more DAC lookups? Or depending on the number of domains you own will decide how many DAC lookups you get?

 

[Edwin]

It makes some kind of sense to at least partially tie certain limits to the number of domains under management by that entity.

If a large registrar has 100,000 .co.uk domains registered, it is going to need much more lookups purely for day to day activities than an entity with 100 domains registered.

A hybrid system might work, whereby a base number of lookups per domain under management is credited to each tag but this can be supplemented by an unlimited number of lookups purchased at a cost of X/1,000 lookups. The latter would suit dropcatchers, for example, who may not have many domains "under management" but can almost literally never get enough lookups.

Larger dropcatching players could buy huge blocks of lookups, just like now they can buy massive servers, better connectivity and better scripts. It might also be possible for large registrars with zero interest in drop catching to agree to "pass on" some of their lookup credits to a particular catcher, in exchange for a slice of the action (a bit like Snapnames has rolled up hundreds of registrar partnerships in the US).

 

[Whois-Search]

I believe (since I asked Jay) that this would apply to all Nominet systems including Automaton, Whois2, DAC etc.

I feel this goes back to splitting up the membership in to "small, medium and large" again. This also leads to smaller members feeling larger members have more 'power' than they do.

Just like in Hazel's proposal from the same meeting see point 3 on:

http://www.nic.uk/digitalAssets/10981_070102_PAB_Composition.pdf

Some may say this is a good idea however I would like the people to consider the consequences of doing this.

I have already outlined (on Nom-steer) what may happen like mass TAG transfers to get votes.


However other possibilities are:

1. Companies like Pipex and Schlund would be either approached to sell their DAC limit, or the big tag holders would actually work out they could do drop catching themselves as they would have the most DAC lookups. Meaning large TAG holders would have a monopoly on dropcatching but could hide behind the fact they need the extra lookups because they have the most customers/domains.

2. People would just register any old trash to get as many lookups as they can.

3. People would create as many TAG's as they can. I presume you would get a minimum number of lookups per TAG?

4. Small Members who became a member just to use DAC would stop being members.

5. Take a service like DAC Hosting what happens if to join the "drop club" you have to transfer all your domain names on to their TAG?

6. Nominet members already pay extra to use services like the DAC
Domain Availability Checker which is £25 + VAT per year. How much would "Additional limits" be?

7. Whois2 is already 100 queries per second
Acceptable Use Policy what would small, medium and large get? What will be the effects of this?

8. Automaton is already 1,000 attempts in any 24 hour period
Acceptable Use what would small, medium and large get? What would TAG holders that are NOT Nominet members get? What will be the effects of this?

 

[Edwin]

I feel this goes back to splitting up the membership in to "small, medium and large" again. This also leads to smaller members feeling larger members have more 'power' than they do.

Why shouldn't that be the case? In all other walks of life, larger businesses have more money, facilities and resources available than smaller businesses. There's no "level playing field" out there. Domaining, at this stage, is definitely a "real" business for a lot of players - so why shouldn't those with more money/resources be able to get more if they want to?

In this, .co.uk is the somewhat peculiar exception rather than the rule - for instance, some entitites have set up hundreds, if not thousands, of parallel registrars to maximize their chances in the .com drops at a cost of several thousand dollars apiece.

 

[Whois-Search]

Because when your paying for a Nominet membership you want the same as every other member.

I'm nearly top of Google UK for the term "whois"
whois - Google Search I produce as many lookups as the average large TAG holder? Since I have 0 domains on my TAG which option could I use to get more lookups? Why should Pipex have more than me?

 

[bb99]

Have you read this:

[snip]

Had I noticed this stuff before the meeting I would have sent my views on it to the PAB-Suggest email address... But alas I did not.

Will be interesting to see the minutes to see what was decided.

 

[tifosi]

Lets be clear about the different services here.

When the dac was initiated (and Jay etal will hopefully be able to verify this) this was to facilitate high speed domain checking, and to alleviate the load on the whois2 system.

In addition the use of the whois2 for patterened matching (ie x per second per second) is/was prohibited. The code I think has been optimised for this as well. All of which is on Nominet's website.

Monitoring domains for release and checking the generic whios status are very different things.

A large company with xxx thousand domains might be justified in requiring the ability to look up a greater no of domains. But stepping back from the situation shows it in a different light. The reality is that these are normally public facing companies providing a whois ( & registration service). The no of domains on their books are secondary to the ability to provide this service. But at a daily quota of 100000 for a whois proxy will that ever be reached for .uk lookups. And wouldn't a % burst of quota be more appropriate on an arrangable basis?

Nominet's stance on sharing quotas seems very clear. This would result in the totals being linked between memberships (Not TAGS, were talking memberships remember).

To change this and go down the route of tiered allocations would be a recipe for breaking the above at the least.

To link all services are the same in terms of staggered quota allowance would be a backward step.

Some of the comments on the PAB mailling list seem to have been really backhanded swipes at domainers in general without a great deal of though to the overall picture and the reasons for these proposals.

The big companies already have a large control over Nominet by the fact of
their voting blocks (reminds me of the trade unions in the 70's labour party!). The domain industry is driven by innovation, and a lot of the smaller members are members here, and are the most vociferous AND innovative in the industry, and help in both being the eyes and ears, and the public driving force... whatever some may think of them.

It's a complex issue, and one that need more than a simple solution. If there's a problem to start with.

Stephen

 

[Whois-Search]

There has even just been a suggestion on Nom-steer (from a PAB member) that we "pay per lookup" to systems like the DAC.

What do you think about that?

I think it's time those that use the DAC make their feelings known to Jay Daley direct jay[at]nominet.org.uk

 

[Paullas]

There has even just been a suggestion on Nom-steer (from a PAB member) that we "pay per lookup" to systems like the DAC.

What do you think about that?

I think it's time those that use the DAC make their feelings known to Jay Daley direct jay[at]nominet.org.uk

I thought the DAC was made specially for domain catchers, and the whois and whois2 was for companies like 123 reg etc, now on nom-steer they want to bring in charging the dac users per lookup or even making a dac 2 hahahaha. then next year we might get a dac3 for newbies.......

will this never end...........

 

[seb]

Context.. context.. context..

There has even just been a suggestion on Nom-steer (from a PAB member) that we "pay per lookup" to systems like the DAC.

Now why did it surprise me my comment would end up on here out of context.

Firstly, can I refer you to the bottom of my e-mail.. where it says "in a personal capacity".. I put that there for the specific reason that my comments were not going to be attached with any perceived perception which doesn't exist the PAB has a particular view on what I say.. I was not making a proposal.. just floating options and speculating as to what could happen.

It seems to me things I say are being interpreted as anti-domaining by you.. Paying £2.08 per month doesn't seem to me to be a very high fixed price for lookups to the DAC.. Charging those who want to use DAC more seems to make sense.. Why should those using it less (e.g. you) pay as much as those who use it more?

Whether domaining is good or bad is a separate issue.. There is no policy about domaining being 'bad' (somehow it comes across as if you think there is).. I don't think domainers had anything to do with why the access limits paper was ever written (I can only speculate again as I didn't write it)..

What makes "per lookup" fees any different to "per domain" registration fees? Should you be given unlimited domains when you become a Nominet member?

Just as a side note (no I'm not going to be spending hours on end on this forum or nom-steer for that matter--I just wanted to clarify this as I think people might misunderstand me otherwise).. if you want PAB members to engage in debate with you, don't try and raise comments they make to some special "PAB Member" flag or you will find even fewer PAB members will freely encourage in debate on a personal level as they don't want the PAB to be associated with individual views or debates which it inherently does if we're being open and trying to explore all options

It's absolutely right for domainers to let Nominet and the PAB know of problems with proposals (preferably before they are at the PAB table) that affect them.. I'm not trying to suggest otherwise.. I just don't like being quoted without context.


seb
(soon to be ex-"pab member" being referred to above - speaking entirely in a personal capacity)

 

[aquanuke]

Charging those who want to use DAC more seems to make sense.. Why should those using it less (e.g. you) pay as much as those who use it more?

Catching is very competitive, so even if you was only monitoring one domain you would want to run at full capacity, so everyone who wanted to stand a chance would buy the maximum allowed lookups.. so we dont save anything, we only end up paying more.

 

[Whois-Search]

Now why did it surprise me my comment would end up on here out of context.

Firstly, can I refer you to the bottom of my e-mail.. where it says "in a personal capacity".. I put that there for the specific reason that my comments were not going to be attached with any perceived perception which doesn't exist the PAB has a particular view on what I say.. I was not making a proposal.. just floating options and speculating as to what could happen.

It seems to me things I say are being interpreted as anti-domaining by you.. Paying £2.08 per month doesn't seem to me to be a very high fixed price for lookups to the DAC.. Charging those who want to use DAC more seems to make sense.. Why should those using it less (e.g. you) pay as much as those who use it more?

Whether domaining is good or bad is a separate issue.. There is no policy about domaining being 'bad' (somehow it comes across as if you think there is).. I don't think domainers had anything to do with why the access limits paper was ever written (I can only speculate again as I didn't write it)..

What makes "per lookup" fees any different to "per domain" registration fees? Should you be given unlimited domains when you become a Nominet member?

Just as a side note (no I'm not going to be spending hours on end on this forum or nom-steer for that matter--I just wanted to clarify this as I think people might misunderstand me otherwise).. if you want PAB members to engage in debate with you, don't try and raise comments they make to some special "PAB Member" flag or you will find even fewer PAB members will freely encourage in debate on a personal level as they don't want the PAB to be associated with individual views or debates which it inherently does if we're being open and trying to explore all options

It's absolutely right for domainers to let Nominet and the PAB know of problems with proposals (preferably before they are at the PAB table) that affect them.. I'm not trying to suggest otherwise.. I just don't like being quoted without context.


seb
(soon to be ex-"pab member" being referred to above - speaking entirely in a personal capacity)

Thanks for joining and explaining things here Seb.

I apologise if I quoted you out of context, however you know as well as I do the influence PAB members like your self have even in a personal capacity.

Also after thinking about this some more it wouldn't be the Nominet members who would "pay" or suffer, it would be ordinary stakeholders.

For example if you charged per lookup for the DAC, Nominet members would pass this cost directly on to their customers.....

So:

- TAG holders or large 'registrars' may have to increase registration fees.

- Dropcatchers would have to charge more for the sale of their domains.

- Even I would have to convert deleting.co.uk from a FREE service to a subscription service N.B. my site is not only used by dropcatchers I get emails from companies every week asking how to catch or get their company name back.

 

[Whois-Search]

From the Jan PAB meeting report:

10. Access Limits Policy
Lesley Cowley presented the paper and explained that it was an attempt to bring together a number of policies that Nominet has in various places relating to access limits, to create a coherent policy that would ensure protection of the register database.
Sebastien Lahtinen asked the Executive whether on the basis of this proposal they would implement major changes in charging structures for services without further dialogue with the PAB and other stakeholders. Lesley Cowley replied that it would be unwise for Nominet to undertake major changes without discussing them with stakeholders first.
Clive Feather suggested that the limits should be applicable to the service in question.

Resolution

The PAB resolved to accept the recommendations set out in the paper headed 'Access Limits Policy'.

http://www.nic.uk/digitalAssets/11741_Jan_2007_PAB_report.pdf

So what does this mean now? The PAB have accepted Jay's Paper and so now it goes to the board to approve it (allow him to do it)? Will price changes for the DAC go to public consultation?

 

[seb]

I apologise if I quoted you out of context, however you know as well as I do the influence PAB members like your self have even in a personal capacity.

I'm sure it may be more likely to influence.. I have no issue with being quoted.. just the context I had issue with

- TAG holders or large 'registrars' may have to increase registration fees.

This would be quite marginal.. and should reflect the cost. It's worth noting registrars' requirements for a DAC are rather less time sensitive than dropcatchers.. this could be a "silver queue" so to speak.

- Dropcatchers would have to charge more for the sale of their domains.

The competition is out there one way or another.. At the moment I suspect there are attempts to cheat the system by aggregating credits.. Easy enough to do on a few domains and you couldn't prove anything. By buying credits you could allow dropcatching to scale to a new level. Also there could be a "gold queue" which is a specialised DAC queue which is live without delay.. then dropcatchers could use that..

- Even I would have to convert deleting.co.uk from a FREE service to a subscription service

I'm surprised it is free.. I think people would pay for it.. Have you considered "preferential" access to the data earlier? Not sure how well that would work.. could be interesting.

On another note, you say on your site you can't cover every domain.. if you could buy DAC lookups you could make that decision yourself as to how many to check and how often and improve your service. Note also that my comment about a "silver queue" above could probably work for you too as you don't need to know 'the second' a domain goes..

At the moment you'd have difficulty doing deleting.co.uk + running a dropcatching business because your lookups would be limited overall.. What's wrong with you running both such businesses if you wanted to?

N.B. my site is not only used by dropcatchers I get emails from companies every week asking how to catch or get their company name back.

Sounds like you need to be making commission on those


seb
(being controversial )

 

[Whois-Search]

Seb,

DAC

If Nominet was Veri$ign then i'd say yeah charge what you like for DAC lookups - why not 1p per lookup.

However Nominet is not-for-profit and a member led company.

Therefore I believe (as I said in my PAB election statement) Every Nominet member/registrar should get the same number of lookups initially and can apply for more under strict requirements.

The only ones I expect to apply for more are registrars like Pipex, UK2 and OneAndOne.

Dropcatchers are kept at a level playing field when they have the same number of lookups rather than who has the deepest pockets. Hopefully Nominet can put a stop to linked tags and bugs in the system soon.

If Nominet does implement the "waiting list" service (again on a not-for-profit basis) this will all be irrelevant anyway.

DELETING

I remember when www.deleteddomains.com was free and popular until iNET bought them out and made it subscription based.

This led to other sites like www.snapcheck.com being created which are now even subscription themselves.

So now the free one is www.premiumdrops.com

However I might offer a deleting.co.uk Gold Service soon where people can download CSV files etc.

I am also looking to put more affiliates on my site with backorder companies, I prefer to make 25% or what ever than have to deal with customers!

Then again maybe I run those sites as not-for-profit make my money from other things

Andrew

 

[seb]

If Nominet was Veri$ign then i'd say yeah charge what you like for DAC lookups - why not 1p per lookup.

I haven't done any sums but to me 1p/lookup sounds quite expensive

However Nominet is not-for-profit and a member led company.

Therefore I believe (as I said in my PAB election statement) Every Nominet member/registrar should get the same number of lookups initially and can apply for more under strict requirements.

"apply" for more? So you expect Nominet to judge who'se business model is correct? This might work but it's also a bit subjective on what is right and wrong.

The only ones I expect to apply for more are registrars like Pipex, UK2 and OneAndOne.

This is solved by a simple system which is a slower lookup system for registrars.. Dropcatchers are looking for "the edge" in performance.. so an artificial delay will separate these and no need for subjectivity.. Similarly your deleting service would be able to run on a registrar DAC system and not on a dropcatcher one.

Dropcatchers are kept at a level playing field when they have the same number of lookups rather than who has the deepest pockets. Hopefully Nominet can put a stop to linked tags and bugs in the system soon.

Are you saying you want Nominet to have a system which introduces inefficiencies into the market by increasing the barriers to entry by requiring very custom setups to participate by very good connectivity and clever use of algorhythms to work out what requests to send and try to work out how to minimise the changes of getting 'caught' breaking rules, and optimising use of the various limits for different bits?

If Nominet does implement the "waiting list" service (again on a not-for-profit basis) this will all be irrelevant anyway.

When we discussed this on the PAB before I was against it.. I don't like the idea of a derivatives market on domains. I'm honestly not sure on this at the moment.. it would level the playing field beyond those of you (<cough>.. us.. sort of... <admits to being a DAC subscriber></cough> who have to develop systems for whatever our requirement.. be it dropcatching, domaining, or as in my case, just to learn how the system works )

I remember when www.deleteddomains.com was free and popular until iNET bought them out and made it subscription based.

So now the free one is www.premiumdrops.com

demand(service(cost=0)) > demand(service(cost>0)) # is a no brainer for most services

as is d(low)*profit(cost>0) > d(high)*profit(cost=0) ... gets more complex with affiliate opportunities so I'm sure you've worked it out

However I might offer a deleting.co.uk Gold Service soon where people can download CSV files etc.

Makes sense..

I am also looking to put more affiliates on my site with backorder companies, I prefer to make 25% or what ever than have to deal with customers!

That's fine but for people like me who ignore all affiliate links except in very rare occasions.. but then I'm probably picky


seb

 

[retired_member3]

All this doesn't sound like a good time to start thinking about catching? I don't want to pay £500+ and it all changes the next day! How likely is this shakeup? is it all suggestions, or in the pipeline or done deal?

 

[seb]

All this doesn't sound like a good time to start thinking about catching? I don't want to pay £500+ and it all changes the next day! How likely is this shakeup? is it all suggestions, or in the pipeline or done deal?

If you're serious about catching domains, £500 isn't a huge investment.. besides catching will no doubt always be around in one form or another. Even if the pricing structure changed you'd still I expect need to be a member to access Nominet systems at lower rates.

seb

 

[Jay Daley]

I thought the DAC was made specially for domain catchers, and the whois and whois2 was for companies like 123 reg etc, now on nom-steer they want to bring in charging the dac users per lookup or even making a dac 2 hahahaha. then next year we might get a dac3 for newbies.......

No the DAC was not made specially for domain catchers. It was made for all members that need high speed lookups of domain availability, without seeing registrants details. There are lots of reasons someone might need this.

 

[grandin]

Legitimate

Hi Jay,

Can you clarify what is considered fair use and what is not?

I can understand someone in the legal profession requiring such access but otherwise I don't

Lee