History of domain name Registrant

[mif]

I have need to provide historical information on the Registrant of a domain name. Its a Tax / Accountant / Amortisation of a Business Asset thing....

What historical information would Nominet provide about Registrant transfers for a particular name for the past N years ?

Is there a fee ?

Does UK Inland Revenue / Customs & Excise have a hotline direct to the information themselves ?


(I am particularly interested in the records of a Pre-Nominet name, and I know they only got tidied up in 2004.)

--
Mike

 

[aquanuke]

Nominet wont supply any information about previous registrants. Maybe try archive.org if you havent already

 

[olebean]

Mif

I'm curious why you would need to prove anything, if you have receipt of payment to or from an entity I cannot see why you would need to prove who the entity was.. Unless the TAX office are looking to investigate the supplying entity!..

 

[retired_member12]

Mif,

PM sent. Hope it helps.

DT

 

[Beasty]

domaintools.com paid subscription has a History section - if someone else has looked up the domain they keep a record of the WHOIS. A bit hit and miss - but along with archive.org already mentioned is about all there is I think.

 

[mif]

...various responses...

Thanks Guys, but that wasn't the question. In fact, I know the entire history of the name and its ownership since 1994 in complete detail.

My question is quite specific, and I can't find the answer on Nominet's site, so I was asking here:

What information can Nominet produce on the history of ownership of Pre-Nominet registrations ?

Is there a way I can fill in a form and send them a fee, and they'll send me an extract of the records ?

--
Mike

 

[Beasty]

Thanks Guys, but that wasn't the question. In fact, I know the entire history of the name and its ownership since 1994 in complete detail.

My question is quite specific, and I can't find the answer on Nominet's site, so I was asking here:

What information can Nominet produce on the history of ownership of Pre-Nominet registrations ?

Is there a way I can fill in a form and send them a fee, and they'll send me an extract of the records ?

--
Mike

Not as far as I am aware. I seriously doubt they have anything more than the details they picked up from JANET in 1996. Even if they did, think it most unlikely they would disclose it to you. As to what they'd show the Inland Revenue, your guess is as good as mine.

 

[mif]

Not as far as I am aware. I seriously doubt they have anything more than the details they picked up from JANET in 1996. Even if they did, think it most unlikely they would disclose it to you.

I am Registrant of the name in question.

Nominet have the information, and they must have some means of accessing it. They must have to retreive historical information to resolve name disputes, for example.

As to what they'd show the Inland Revenue, your guess is as good as mine.

My question is tax-related. As names become valuable, they have to be considered as Business Assets, and handled as such by one's Accountant. This would include profit on the sale of a name incurring a tax liability, which liability reduces according to the time the asset has been held.

Others on this list must have encountered this issue before ?

--
Mike

 

[Jay Daley]

What information can Nominet produce on the history of ownership of Pre-Nominet registrations ?

Is there a way I can fill in a form and send them a fee, and they'll send me an extract of the records ?

We have the emails records of some members of the Naming Committee, the body that issued domain name registrations before Nominet. However I don't know much about the contents or our policy on releasing that data.

I suggest you ask us directly at [email protected]

 

[rob]

Nominet have the information, and they must have some means of accessing it. They must have to retreive historical information to resolve name disputes, for example.

Give them a ring and explain the situation and see what they say.

I can see this becoming a more frequent request.

 

[olebean]

Mif

You still haven't explained why it is so important to go so far back..

My instincts tell me you are undergoing a tax investigation and the tax office have decided to open up you books beyond the 6 year limitation period... If that is the case and one of those reasons is due to the ownership and transfer of domain names, it has serious ramifications.

 

[mif]

Mif

You still haven't explained why it is so important to go so far back..

My instincts tell me you are undergoing a tax investigation and the tax office have decided to open up you books beyond the 6 year limitation period... If that is the case and one of those reasons is due to the ownership and transfer of domain names, it has serious ramifications.

Its not important to find records from way way back. I mentioned that its a pre-Nominet name because that may mean that records before 2004 (when pre-Nominet names were brought 'into the fold') may be sketchy.

Not currently being investigated. But I am anticipating a potential future requirement to 'justify a position' which my Accountant may take regarding what he states as some future year's tax liability.

-----------

Here's why:

A 5-figure and above domain name is 'An Asset' - it has to be, just like Intellectual Property, a Patent for a new mousetrap, or selling the remaining lease on a business property.

If one buys an asset for £10,000, then sells it for £20,000, there's £10,000 profit. ...On which one has to pay Capital Gains Tax.

If the asset is owned by a Business (i.e. aCompany Ltd is down as Registrant) - then one set of tax rules applies.

If the asset is owned by a Private Individual, and is being used in the pursuance of a business (i.e. Joe Bloggs is down as Registrant, and aCompany Ltd is using the name in its trading) - then another set of tax rules applies.

So _precisely_ whose name is on the historical records may impact one's tax liability.

--
Mike

 

[olebean]

Mike

I'm aware of the implications of tax, write off of an asset etc etc. I'm still unsure why someone elses historical data affects your "current" or "future" tax liability.

Unless you are arguing the retention of someone elses details on whois can result in tax evasion or diversion of tax liability? Especially with whois details witheld or Harvey the Rabbit as domain name owner!

 

[retired_member12]

Mif,

I've got something over to you via your email. Have a read.

BTW, an f'in great pair of doms matey. (that'll keep 'em guessing!)

DT

 

[mif]

Mif,

I've got something over to you via your email. Have a read.

BTW, an f'in great pair of doms matey. (that'll keep 'em guessing!)

DT

Shhhh ! (None of their business) (Though I guess that's started people fingering

Demonstrating the history of ownership is a generic point anyway.

--
Mike

 

[bb99]

Mike

I'm aware of the implications of tax, write off of an asset etc etc. I'm still unsure why someone elses historical data affects your "current" or "future" tax liability.

Unless you are arguing the retention of someone elses details on whois can result in tax evasion or diversion of tax liability? Especially with whois details witheld or Harvey the Rabbit as domain name owner!

I think what he's saying is that the tax position differs as to whether the domain is owned by him personally or by his company.

In order to justify the position that he's taking, his accountant will want to see documentary evidence to support who owned the domain and when, particularly if it's passed between individual and individual's company at some point in the past. The accountant will probably need to do this in order to satisfy the terms of his PI insurance and/or tax investigation isurance.

Just guessing though

 

[olebean]

I think what he's saying is that the tax position differs as to whether the domain is owned by him personally or by his company.

In order to justify the position that he's taking, his accountant will want to see documentary evidence to support who owned the domain and when, particularly if it's passed between individual and individual's company at some point in the past. The accountant will probably need to do this in order to satisfy the terms of his PI insurance and/or tax investigation isurance.

Just guessing though

That is what I have established.. A letter or invoice from the the company would suffice for historical ownership and legitimate transfer.

As long as Mif sticks to the fact the company agreed to the transfer and keeps in mind he is not the company, they are separate entities then I wouldn't worry...

 

[traffic1]

good point oblean.

what people do now might screw up the tax system for the rest of us, as inland rev & even the big 4 accountancy firms dont understand the tax/vat side of it yet.

i saw some other people arguing domains are simply leased as it says on some registrar agreement forms, and deducting it 100% as an expense same way you would property rent etc..

personally i would have done things very differently in hindsight, i.e. classifying it as an asset for 2 years then getting taper relief on any sales, (10% instead of 40% tax) or for large portfolio holders selling the whole company shares after 2 years and the same thing.

ive been totally screwed over - paid more than £xxx,xxx in tax last few years, simply due to lack of planning, and making big sales without thinking about it. (on that note i think even sedo got massacered a few years ago, as they werent charging vat. had to backdate and big fines. later they changed the sales agreement to make the onus on individuals rather than them)

currently easiest way for me is trade as an individual, and everything can be expensed accross the year, i.e. make a big sale in may 2007, go spend that money may -march 2008, on 'domain related' to reduce profits and tax liability and then sell that stuff again for more profit, after april 2008. eventually it catches up, but if you move overseas before 1st of april in any year, then the final sale you have made is not taxable.

problem with doing it the other way (capital gains) if you dont hold stuff for 1-2 years is you cant deduct costs/expenses for new purchases (new regs/resale) after you have sold something.(can if your a company but tricky) and if you decide to sell everything once overseas you get screwed by the 5 years non resident thing. 'trading' however, as soon as your out for the year its not taxable.

gets even more complicated as more than 1 or 2 sales, it cant be capital gains, has to be trading, and also if your buying selling stuff as a going concern, and goodwill to avoid paying vat, then this has to be a capital gains rather than trading sale.

everything you do will depend on your business style, and my way is best suited for mass regs/ big sales, on a continuous basis. if any of you want any advice etc, just send me a pm. ive been screwed over enough through lack of planning, so have learnt the rules/tricks pretty well since then

 

[mif]

what people do now might screw up the tax system for the rest of us, as inland rev & even the big 4 accountancy firms dont understand the tax/vat side of it yet.

You are right, there seems to be very little true understanding, and no 'position adopted' or 'advice bulletins issued' by HMRC. My Accountant is currently digging for what he can find, and coming up empty.

I really want to find some prior art, because who wants to stick their head above the parapet and become a Test Case !

i saw some other people arguing domains are simply leased as it says on some registrar agreement forms, and deducting it 100% as an expense same way you would property rent etc..

Yes, its a Lease. And £10 to Nominet every 2 years is a deductible expense well below everybodies radar.

On a different screen is profit on the sale of the remaining term of a Lease. That's the closest bricks-and-mortar analogy. If I bought a Lease on an industrial unit, then sold that Lease on to someone else for a profit - that's a Capital Gain on (what HMRC might interpret as) An Asset.

...Its that HMRC interpretation I am trying to get a handle on.

personally i would have done things very differently in hindsight, i.e. classifying it as an asset for 2 years then getting taper relief on any sales, (10% instead of 40% tax) or for large portfolio holders selling the whole company shares after 2 years and the same thing.

This is what my Accountant advised me 2 years ago - make it a _personal_ asset (note, not a business asset).

Selling the whole company is an interesting thought. In other words, the Ltd Co is a wrapper round the asset(s). Is this tax-advantageous, over selling assets as assets?

...

Excellent advice for those here who have ongoing portfolios. Feel free to take this thread in that direction if you want.

I'm at the last step of that process - I now want to cash in my chips and retire. (I only have the one good name, but I imagine the situation would be the same for someone liquidating a portfolio.)

--------------

I am intrigued by the comment 'leave before 1st April [and you avoid....]'. Also, its not outwith the bounds of possibility that someone would pay me in dollars in an account in the Cayman Islands. I quite fancy retiring abroad

--
Mike

 

[traffic1]

if you want to cash in your chips 2 ways you can do it. (dependant on the amount your anticipating of getting).

have the whois changed to a company, (you would have to have owned for 2+ years,) then instead of selling the domain, or portfolio, sell your shares of the company. end results 10% income tax on it. can stay in the uk and do this one. always leave a few semi dormant or late return companies around for this very reason then just file the accounts including the domain. - if you have only sold 1 name before, and dont do it regularly, if you have held it for 2 years - can get the taper relief anyway, no need for company.

otherwise, make a few dummy trades for a few thousand, (buy xzxcz.com for £500, sell it for £1k, etc - to friends if necessary) - to remove the capital gains element of your sales status, and make it certain your trading. can also pay vat etc on these sales et (assuming over the 60k or whatever turnover). Before april 5th 2008 leave the country for one year - to either a non tax haven (dubai,most carribean,andorra etc,) or to a country where they don't tax your foreign earnings, i.e. thailand, malta etc. Then make the sale in may 2008 just to make it clear cut, (1 month after non resident) . In this case, you dont need to pay anything at all to inland revenue for that big sale. (definitely worth doing if its over 250k, as 100k+ tax savings).
to be even safer, dont sell to a uk based entity. as they might argue the funds originated from the uk even though your non resident. (can also be a very very small risk if you get it paid into your uk bank account as thats a uk trade).

in terms of getting paid in $ into the cayman islands, that is not necessary, any non uk bank will do. (personally dont trust many offshore banks, so choose a reputable one in isle of man, jersey, or luxemborg,swiss)

Both methods above are perfectly legit. wherever you choose (thailand is a good choice, live comfortably for 12k over the year,+ if your single i dont need to say anymore). i find most accountants, are not creative at all. so you usually need to come up with the idea, and then pay them to sign it off.