Is there any good news?

[scooter]

the thinktank warned that families with children will be worse off in 2016 than they were 14 years earlier as they cope with more than a decade of austerity

Great.
What a feckin mess. Something very wrong with the capitalism model we all follow at present.

Goldman Sachs wrap up their sub prime mortgage deals, sprinkle them with a few acceptable ones and punt them globally on the open market as a good deal and all banks slurp them up when all the time a sub arm of the same company is betting billions they will go tits up!

Can it also be right that you can bet billions on the market that another country going tits up? What a sham. Greed is all that matters. Feck the rest.

Here's some info.
The ECB is run by a former Goldman Sach employee.
Greece now has a non public elected ex Goldman Sach prime minister.
Italy now has a non public elected ex Goldman Sach prime minister.

So bankers get us into this mess and through panic, (or sheer ignorance) they internally elect bankers to run their country. :shock:


Every night for the last 12 months it has been the same doom and gloom on the news. Now it is recognised it's really just starting and will be with us for at least the next 8yrs. Time for a radical rethink on capitalism but in reality I don't think anything will change. Ever.

I remenber Alisdair Darling stating there would be no more super bonuses for the bankers. What a damp squid as in reality it is the money markets that now rule the world.

I don't think anything will change unless there is mass Western disruption from the masses.

On a positive note, at least it has been a mild winter so far and the money grabbing utility companies are now panicking. Feck you. But then again it affects my parents. As pensioners their pension company has invested heavily in utilities which mean less premiums and ultimately less money for them.

What a mess. What's the answer? I don't know but I do know the current model is very flawed.



.

 

[GreyWing]

Nothing to do with capitalism mate, if we would have seen capitalism then the banks would have gone bust and me and you would have been buying what was left of them for £1. New banks would have popped up and we could have had 50 banks on the high streets of the UK again, not just 6. But for some reason they were saved, the very opposite of capitalism.

The truth about what is wrong is that we have 7 million public sector workers when we only need 2.5m. That means that on average the wage of just one public worker falls on the shoulder of just 5 private sector workers. That is before those 5 people have to fund the benefits system for those who don't work and all the infrastructure this country works on.

That's where the issue is, too many people not just doing nothing but standing in the way of small businesses by making up silly rules.

In my opinion the blame can in no way be ever be left at the door of capitalism. We had regulation to stop banks trading in the way they did, but while Gordon Brown was getting his cut he simple turned his one good eye in the other direction. No unions were ever shouting about bankers profits in the 90's or early 00's as they were funding the inflated public sector.

Why on earth are public sector workers even getting pensions from the tax payer, give them a bit extra cash and tell them to get their own pension sorted on the private market.

That's my rant over :-D

 

[WaftyCrank]

Greywing do public sector workers not pay tax in your eyes or are you failing to grasp the concept that public and private sector workers are BOTH taxpayers and as such are BOTH responsible.

 

[Edwin]

Greywing do public sector workers not pay tax in your eyes or are you failing to grasp the concept that public and private sector workers are BOTH taxpayers and as such are BOTH responsible.

It's a widely quoted (wrong) argument, but this concept has been roundly debunked, notably in a Channel 4 program earlier this year.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story

In short, they're paying taxes, but only from money they've (in effect) received from the private sector via Government.

So it's like me giving you a pound and then you handing back 25p in pennies to somebody "central" who's really, really rubbish at holding onto pennies (the government "wastes" close to 50% of taxes in the process of administering and collecting them!). So the net effect is I (private sector) am down a pound and the country as a whole (private+public) is down 12.5p (loss through the process of collecting the taxes). While you (public sector) still have 75p of everyone else's money.

Except that it's worse than that, because there are also huge inefficiencies in collecting and distributing that £1 in the first place.

And it's worse than that worse scenario, because the remains of that 25p potentially get spent again on the public sector which produces a small "kickback" in taxes, of which a slice is totally wasted by the same process I outlined above. Iterate this as long as you like - for £1 it makes no sense to do so, but for hundreds of billions of pounds, the iterative process effectively just keeps on throwing money away hand over fist, ground into nothingness by the inertia and inefficiencies of Government.

Contrast that to the private sector, where to pay somebody £1 costs a company £1 plus a fraction of a penny for accounting/PAYE processing and everyone else nothing at all.

 

[Edwin]

Every night for the last 12 months it has been the same doom and gloom on the news. Now it is recognised it's really just starting and will be with us for at least the next 8yrs. Time for a radical rethink on capitalism but in reality I don't think anything will change. Ever.

What a mess. What's the answer? I don't know but I do know the current model is very flawed.

I don't have a "big" answer, but the answer on an individual level MUST be to recognise (as you have) that it's not going to change and therefore don't wait for a "knight in shining armour" (whether the Government, a radical change in the economy or industry, etc.) to come and rescue you because you're likely to be waiting forever.

Instead, face the problem head on and work out how you personally (not the whole country or the whole world - those are "too big" problems - but you and your loved ones) can overcome it.

 

[developdomains]

Some Good News!

My son's football team beat 2nd in the league at their own ground on Saturday 1-0 with my son scoring the winner!

Great game to watch to!

I'm not watching the news/listening to the news/reading the papers anymore. such a waste of time, yes the country is in a mess and we all know who's fault it is, so until they sort them out then nothing will get better.

Look after yourself and your family and if you can do that then you will be ok.

 

[Brassneck]

I don't have a "big" answer, but the answer on an individual level MUST be to recognise (as you have) that it's not going to change and therefore don't wait for a "knight in shining armour" (whether the Government, a radical change in the economy or industry, etc.) to come and rescue you because you're likely to be waiting forever.

Instead, face the problem head on and work out how you personally (not the whole country or the whole world - those are "too big" problems - but you and your loved ones) can overcome it.

I disagree. Greed thrives on everybody being in this for themselves personally and that's how we got in this mess.

For those of you who don't think much of the public sector, I am proud to say that I have worked in a Govt Department for more than 20 years (last couple of years only part-time) and you would be amazed at the amount of talent and dedication of those who work me. We've just lost 25 per cent of our staff and yet people are still working 50 to 60 hour weeks doing their best. Nobody gets annual bonuses of any note, just had 2 years' of pay freezes and only 1% pay increase for next 2 years. Most countries around the world are envious of our public sector skills and ethos but typically of Britain we would rather slag them off.

As it happens I didn't agree with the pension strike as I feel that the Govt has come up with a fair compromise. However a lot of people feel threatened and have been through a lot of change and uncertainty (like many others) so feel it is necessary to put down some lines in the sand.

Stephen.

 

[BREWSTERS]

Spending too much time worrying about all this is pointless and only ends up making your blood boil.

The only solution is to make enough money personally, no matter what the rest of the world is doing. Work with or around the rules as best you can and don't fall into the traps set by the banks and big business. I've over-borrowed in the past and it takes a hell of a lot of effort to get yourself back to level again.

The most important lesson in life should be only borrow money if that money will make your more, or you can pay it back before it costs you anything. Generally, mortgages are ok as capital growth will cover the cost of the interest. Not at the moment though.

Finance should be taught in schools and this should be the first lesson. Why isn't it? Because the world is in a debt bubble, and all politicians are scared of it popping under their watch. Headlines of one newspaper this morning - 'Day The Worlds Banks Wobbled'. Six months ago there was a news item on TV where someone was saying that by the end of the year there will be another round of refinancing needed because the propped-up banks can't afford to repay their own debts. I saw that and thought why isn't that headline news then - it got barely 3 or 4 minutes coverage. Just like Greece. There are frantic negotiations going on around the world right now to pay more money to the banks - you won't be hearing too much about it from the media though - they're the other corner of the triangle. Too sensitive just before Christmas.

This is the only power we hold over the banks. We stop borrowing, and they will shrivel and die - at least in their current form. Unfortunately that's never going to happen as the generations that come will be even more used to 'live now, pay later' than we are. Voting for this party or that will make not a jot of difference. Politicians have no power over the banks - we do.

Banks power is from debt - we have the option to take on debt or not. I'm going to tell my kids, "take drugs; sleep around; drive too fast; but for gods sake, don't get yourselves into debt...it's not worth it".

 

[retired_member32]

is there any good news ? no is the answer

migration up = more benefits

rent is up = more benefits

benefits up 5.5% = more benefits

10 years of austerity is optimistic at best...

 

[Edwin]

For those of you who don't think much of the public sector, I am proud to say that I have worked in a Govt Department for more than 20 years (last couple of years only part-time) and you would be amazed at the amount of talent and dedication of those who work me. We've just lost 25 per cent of our staff and yet people are still working 50 to 60 hour weeks doing their best. Nobody gets annual bonuses of any note, just had 2 years' of pay freezes and only 1% pay increase for next 2 years. Most countries around the world are envious of our public sector skills and ethos but typically of Britain we would rather slag them off.

Nothing that I posted said anything negative about the PEOPLE working in the public sector. But the ECONOMICS of the public sector are extremely inefficient compared to the private sector because the Government interposes itself in the middle of the tax-redistribute process - no matter how hard public sector workers toil, that middle "Goverment" step GUARANTEES financial inefficiency. That is absolutely basic Economics 101 and beyond dispute.

 

[Brassneck]

Nothing that I posted said anything negative about the PEOPLE working in the public sector. But the ECONOMICS of the public sector are extremely inefficient compared to the private sector because the Government interposes itself in the middle of the tax-redistribute process - no matter how hard public sector workers toil, that middle "Goverment" step GUARANTEES financial inefficiency. That is absolutely basic Economics 101 and beyond dispute.

Sorry Edwin wasn't aimed at you personally - only your comment about everybody looking after themselves which I disagree with.

The rest was a general rant at constant criticism of public services in general. They aren't perfect but they could be a lot worse.

 

[BREWSTERS]

Sorry Edwin wasn't aimed at you personally - only your comment about everybody looking after themselves which I disagree with.

The rest was a general rant at constant criticism of public services in general. They aren't perfect but they could be a lot worse.

Everybody has to look after themself - including those in the public sector. It shouldn't be a 'them and us' situation...everyone is entitled to strive for the best for themselves (but not at the cost of others). That is a worthy goal.

The 'them and us' ought to be directed at those who have created the current economic climate through greed. It's a form of evil really - no better than street dealers who want their customers to get hooked so they need to keep coming back.

 

[hal]

Nothing to do with capitalism mate, if we would have seen capitalism then the banks would have gone bust and me and you would have been buying what was left of them for £1. New banks would have popped up and we could have had 50 banks on the high streets of the UK again, not just 6. But for some reason they were saved, the very opposite of capitalism.

This is a message that needs to be spread far and wide.

Our current economic woes are not as a result from capitalism. More like crony-capitalism or corporatism.

We live in a society with an oversized and out of control state, BOE included, effectively hijacked by special interest groups.

 

[Sussexite]

The Good News is..

..that we can start to learn that earning and spending stacks of money is not the sole purpose of life.

..that we don't need a lot of the crap we buy as it doesn't make us any happier

...and that friends, family and health are the real riches in life - not consumerist nonsense.

As a born worrier that's how I'm trying to approach this challenging time anyway.

 

[stender]

I'm redundant as of April and facing statutory payment for 15 years of service and 3 months notice i won't be getting either, which is bad news, and can't face using agencies to find a new job either.
The good news is i might have time to start building some sites and make some money!

Things look very bleak next year in the financial sector. I wish I could convince the wife to emigrate.

 

[WaftyCrank]

It's a widely quoted (wrong) argument, but this concept has been roundly debunked, notably in a Channel 4 program earlier this year.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story

In short, they're paying taxes, but only from money they've (in effect) received from the private sector via Government.

So it's like me giving you a pound and then you handing back 25p in pennies to somebody "central" who's really, really rubbish at holding onto pennies (the government "wastes" close to 50% of taxes in the process of administering and collecting them!). So the net effect is I (private sector) am down a pound and the country as a whole (private+public) is down 12.5p (loss through the process of collecting the taxes). While you (public sector) still have 75p of everyone else's money.

Except that it's worse than that, because there are also huge inefficiencies in collecting and distributing that £1 in the first place.

And it's worse than that worse scenario, because the remains of that 25p potentially get spent again on the public sector which produces a small "kickback" in taxes, of which a slice is totally wasted by the same process I outlined above. Iterate this as long as you like - for £1 it makes no sense to do so, but for hundreds of billions of pounds, the iterative process effectively just keeps on throwing money away hand over fist, ground into nothingness by the inertia and inefficiencies of Government.

Contrast that to the private sector, where to pay somebody £1 costs a company £1 plus a fraction of a penny for accounting/PAYE processing and everyone else nothing at all.

Personally I think its a shitty argument to say that just people work in the public sector they should be vilified for having the goal posts moved. If I'd had taken a job in the public sector on less pay for equivalent work done in the private sector (feel free to check) on the understanding that I get a certain pension only to have the contract torn up and re-written years and years down the line I'd be pissed off too.

No matter how you dress it up, public and private sector both contribute to the tax received by the government. It's the employer that is different and that's the bottom line. They pay tax, I pay tax, their tax goes towards those on benefit as well as vital public services (police, fire, NHS etc) just like the private sector. Personally I feel they should be supported.

 

[Edwin]

No matter how you dress it up, public and private sector both contribute to the tax received by the government. It's the employer that is different and that's the bottom line. They pay tax, I pay tax, their tax goes towards those on benefit as well as vital public services (police, fire, NHS etc) just like the private sector. Personally I feel they should be supported.

Ok, if the Government pays a public worker £20,000 pounds they've had to raise approximately £30,000 in taxes from everyone else to do so! The Government doesn't have its "own" money - every penny the Government spends has come from OTHER PEOPLE.

If a company pays a private worker exactly the same £20,000 pounds to do exactly the same job, the cost is £20,000 to the company's bottom line (which gets factored into the costs paid for by "willing" customers who buy its products/services) and £0 to society at large. That's £10,000 less costs overall, and infinitely less burden on non-customers!

 

[Brassneck]

Ok, if the Government pays a public worker £20,000 pounds they've had to raise approximately £30,000 in taxes from everyone else to do so! The Government doesn't have its "own" money - every penny the Government spends has come from OTHER PEOPLE.

If a company pays a private worker exactly the same £20,000 pounds to do exactly the same job, the cost is £20,000 to the company's bottom line (which gets factored into the costs paid for by "willing" customers who buy its products/services) and £0 to society at large. That's £10,000 less costs overall, and infinitely less burden on non-customers!

Are you saying, therefore, that there should be no NHS, police, schools, motorways, etc or anything that is funded / managed by the public sector?

Also, many in the private sector actually rely on the public sector for their employment - e.g. all manner of contractors, service companies doing work on behalf of local and central Govt. - so I think the maths you are quoting there is a bit simplistic. I don't know the details but public sector wage costs are unlikely to be the biggest item in Govt expenditure of £700 bn - see http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/government_expenditure.html

Stephen.

 

[WaftyCrank]

Ok, if the Government pays a public worker £20,000 pounds they've had to raise approximately £30,000 in taxes from everyone else to do so! The Government doesn't have its "own" money - every penny the Government spends has come from OTHER PEOPLE.

If a company pays a private worker exactly the same £20,000 pounds to do exactly the same job, the cost is £20,000 to the company's bottom line (which gets factored into the costs paid for by "willing" customers who buy its products/services) and £0 to society at large. That's £10,000 less costs overall, and infinitely less burden on non-customers!

Edwin you obviously didn't understand my argument. I didn't need the calculation spelling out I just don't agree you're picking the right fight. The fact is the government employs people and entered into a contract, they can't (or rather shouldn't) use legislation to change the contract after the fact. If they're unhappy with the current situation, then alter new contracts for new employees to reflect how they want it to go.

It still comes down to a them and us way of thinking which isn't right or fair. Government employees signed a contract in good faith, took less wages in exchange for a comfortable retirement. They should honour that. Their employees regardless how you wish to calculate it, also pay tax. Whether it comes from you, me or the government. The government do make money, they make and sell arms to allies abroad. They also own the BBC, who make vast amounts in TV licencing as well as advertising to countries outside of the UK. They also run the DVLA who make vast amounts in vehicle licencing.

The government makes money!

Granted the majority of the treasury's purse comes from taxation, however if the government altered how and who they tax and at what rates there wouldn't be any need for public workers to strike.

Edwin the government could stop giving tax relief on pensions for those earning over £100,000. That costs us £10 Billion every year. Sort out the Pensions for the Cabinet of Millionaires, enjoying more money they don't need at the expense of the rest of us, cut back on MPs expenses, address Corporation Tax avoidance, that alone could rake in Billions and Billions.

The last government brokered a deal with the Unions which sees the cost of Public Sector Pensions falling and have been for years. £43Billion more has been paid in by the Public sector than has ever been paid out.

The government are asking their workforce to pay more money out of their already frozen salaries for less in return than their original contract. The addition money doesn't go the Pension fund, it goes to the Treasury - it's effectively a "Public Sector Workers Tax."

 

[Edwin]

Are you saying, therefore, that there should be no NHS, police, schools, motorways, etc or anything that is funded / managed by the public sector?

No, I was very precise in what I was saying so please don't expand my words to try to make them "mean" anything more than what I wrote.