Is there any good news?

[Edwin]

Are you saying, therefore, that there should be no NHS, police, schools, motorways, etc or anything that is funded / managed by the public sector?

No, I was very precise in what I was saying so please don't expand my words to try to make them "mean" anything more than what I wrote.

 

[Edwin]

The government do make money, they make and sell arms to allies abroad. They also own the BBC, who make vast amounts in TV licencing as well as advertising to countries outside of the UK. They also run the DVLA who make vast amounts in vehicle licencing.

A license fee is a tax that has just been given a different name. The BBC license fee is a tax (the money it makes from ads overseas doesn't even cover the full cost of providing its overseas service, hence recent cutbacks). The vehicle license fee is a tax. Tax, duty, license fee, levy, etc - call it what you like, it's all still "taxation". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax

 

[WaftyCrank]

A license fee is a tax that has just been given a different name. The BBC license fee is a tax (the money it makes from ads overseas doesn't even cover the full cost of providing its overseas service, hence recent cutbacks). The vehicle license fee is a tax. Tax, duty, license fee, levy, etc - call it what you like, it's all still "taxation". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax

OK I'll take the point on the TV licence fee as it's unavoidable unless you go to large lengths not to use the BBC services. However you can't call driving licence a tax because it is very much avoidable. It's like any other service being purchased. I use a gym and pay monthly for it, I drive a car and have to pay for a licence to do so.

Anyway that is still not really the point. The point is the government going about this entirely the wrong way. They've successfully used the media to effectively brainwash the nation into thinking the pensions of the public sector are unsustainable, the fact is, this is a lie.

 

[Edwin]

Anyway that is still not really the point. The point is the government going about this entirely the wrong way. They've successfully used the media to effectively brainwash the nation into thinking the pensions of the public sector are unsustainable, the fact is, this is a lie.

Where is proof of this "fact"? Actual, economically valid, solid evidence? You won't find any... because it isn't there!

Actually the WHOLE pension system is broken not just the public sector part.

From an economic perspective, there are too many people living far too long, and far too few children being born to support them. When the state pension was popularised in the 1940s the average life expectancy for men was about the same as the state pension age (65) while the birth rate was high so the "burden" of having to provide for retirement was slight (a large number of workers had to contribute a tiny tiny slice of their wages to support retirees for a handful of years)

Now people live to 80 so instead of supporting them for perhaps 2-3 years in retirement the pension system has to support them for 15+ years. But actually it's much worse than that because an average life expectancy of 80 includes those unfortunate to die very young, young etc. so actually pensioners will probably be drawing on 20-25 years of pensions.

So that means that people work for 40 years and then younger people effectively pay for them to live 20-25 years more in "retirement".

The big cover-up (if there is one) is not that the public sector pensions are unsustainable (they are) but that ALL pension systems are broken.

 

[Brassneck]

No, I was very precise in what I was saying so please don't expand my words to try to make them "mean" anything more than what I wrote.

I'm not picking on you I am just assuming from your calculations that you are saying that the public sector is pointless as all it does is waste money that would be used more efficiently by the private sector. Is that it?

I was just pointing out that the public sector actually does some worthwhile things and does create employment, profits etc for many private sector companies.

Stephen.

 

[Edwin]

I'm not picking on you I am just assuming from your calculations that you are saying that the public sector is pointless as all it does is waste money that would be used more efficiently by the private sector. Is that it?

No. I was simply debunking the myth that because public/private sector workers both pay taxes their situations are somehow equal (in response to the below):

Greywing do public sector workers not pay tax in your eyes or are you failing to grasp the concept that public and private sector workers are BOTH taxpayers and as such are BOTH responsible.

Anyway, this has all been interesting enough but it's time to get on with the day. PLEASE watch the TV programme, and if you're keen read the Wiki page on taxation that I linked to as well - very enlightening!

 

[GreyWing]

Edwin you obviously didn't understand my argument. I didn't need the calculation spelling out I just don't agree you're picking the right fight. The fact is the government employs people and entered into a contract, they can't (or rather shouldn't) use legislation to change the contract after the fact. If they're unhappy with the current situation, then alter new contracts for new employees to reflect how they want it to go.

But the people that these unions pay their donations to did it to the private pensions pots when their hero Gordon Brown raided private pensions for £5bn in the late 90's. So changing the goal posts has happened all the times with pensions, the truth is that all previous Governments have lied to Government workers about their pensions, unfortunately the money has run out on this Governments watch.

Government employees signed a contract in good faith, took less wages in exchange for a comfortable retirement. They should honour that.

I would personally disagree, a proportion of them are not employable in the private sector. My mates work in local Government, they laugh at some of them and their sheer stupidity. Others thought that they have a job for life, unlike Rover or every other private company there is always going to be a Government and they thought they had a job for life.

But to say anyone joins at 20 years old and thinks about a pension is unlikely to me. Very very few 20 year old's care about their pensions.

Their employees regardless how you wish to calculate it, also pay tax. Whether it comes from you, me or the government. The government do make money, they make and sell arms to allies abroad. They also own the BBC, who make vast amounts in TV licencing as well as advertising to countries outside of the UK. They also run the DVLA who make vast amounts in vehicle licencing.

The government makes money

No it doesn't make money, that's like me running a business and losing £500bn a year, then generating £5bn a year and claiming we have made £5bn, nope you have just lost £495bn.

Granted the majority of the treasury's purse comes from taxation, however if the government altered how and who they tax and at what rates there wouldn't be any need for public workers to strike.

Edwin the government could stop giving tax relief on pensions for those earning over £100,000. That costs us £10 Billion every year. Sort out the Pensions for the Cabinet of Millionaires, enjoying more money they don't need at the expense of the rest of us, cut back on MPs expenses, address Corporation Tax avoidance, that alone could rake in Billions and Billions.

The last government brokered a deal with the Unions which sees the cost of Public Sector Pensions falling and have been for years. £43Billion more has been paid in by the Public sector than has ever been paid out.

A union funded Government brokered a deal with the unions, they lied to them. They passed the buck to this Government.... there is no money left.

The government are asking their workforce to pay more money out of their already frozen salaries for less in return than their original contract. The addition money doesn't go the Pension fund, it goes to the Treasury - it's effectively a "Public Sector Workers Tax."

Welcome to the real world is what I'd tell them. It's cold out here isn't it

The truth is that I didn't notice anyone going on strike yesterday, apart from some schools closing it showed me exactly what those 2m people did all day, sod all. If we coped yesterday without 2m public sector workers, we should be able to cope in future, have them all sacked.

 

[Edwin]

BTW, it's worth bringing this neatly back to the other core theme raised in this thread:

"Look after yourself. Nobody else will."

It's a sad reality, but if you're not making your own independent arrangements to save for retirement it's going to be a grim old age.

 

[GreyWing]

BTW, it's worth bringing this neatly back to the other core theme raised in this thread:

"Look after yourself. Nobody else will."

It's a sad reality, but if you're not making your own independent arrangements to save for retirement it's going to be a grim old age.

But of course Edwin, for those who employ people we already have been told that despite paying Employers National insurance (a tax on jobs). We will in the next 3 years have to start paying an additional tax on jobs in the form of pension contributions for our employees.

Well I still have employees and in 3 years time when I have to pay another 3% of their wages towards it??? Nope probably not, the margins aren't there to struggle through and pay extra costs, so that will be 3 more people on the dole. That isn't because I am commercially a failure, it's because I have been taxed out of existence.

Now scale that up to a company that can move abroad and we have the reality of the situation.

 

[developdomains]

Phew! anyone fancy a beer?

 

[WaftyCrank]

But the people that these unions pay their donations to did it to the private pensions pots when their hero Gordon Brown raided private pensions for £5bn in the late 90's. So changing the goal posts has happened all the times with pensions, the truth is that all previous Governments have lied to Government workers about their pensions, unfortunately the money has run out on this Governments watch. <snipped the drivel apologies> ...

... The truth is that I didn't notice anyone going on strike yesterday, apart from some schools closing it showed me exactly what those 2m people did all day, sod all. If we coped yesterday without 2m public sector workers, we should be able to cope in future, have them all sacked.

And whole be left looking after you in the NHS if they were all sacked and you needed hospital treatment. Something tells me you're just a bit too cheap to pay for private

I'm happy to agree to disagree on this one as I think I'll have more success getting a monkey to write the works of shakespear than I would getting through to you greywing

One last note on this subject, the reason we're all fucked and the country has no money has nothing to do with the public sector workers. It has a lot to do with the government(s) bailing out the banks. The same banks who's top executives continue to pay massive bonuses to even though they're into massive debt with the tax payer (all tax payers). So please consider that before you vilify the public sector workers.

 

[BREWSTERS]

One last note on this subject, the reason we're all fucked and the country has no money has nothing to do with the public sector workers. It has a lot to do with the government(s) bailing out the banks. The same banks who's top executives continue to pay massive bonuses to even though they're into massive debt with the tax payer (all tax payers). So please consider that before you vilify the public sector workers.

I addressed this in post #13 - picking the wrong target.

 

[WaftyCrank]

I addressed this in post #13 - picking the wrong target.

So you did It's very accurate too. Such a shame that the government have used the media to create a them and us without taking into account the real private sector companies who caused all this mess.

 

[GreyWing]

I'm happy to agree to disagree on this one as I think I'll have more success getting a monkey to write the works of shakespear than I would getting through to you greywing

Well when you have spent years working in the public sector then spent years working for yourself and employing people and all the costs that incurs you'll have a realistic view on economics and waste.

 

[GreyWing]

By the way this banks bolloxs has nothing to do with it, look at this countries borrowing figures from 2001 (when Gordon's Brown's first spending policies kicked in) and 2007 when the credit crunch happened.

Why was this country paying down it's debt until 2001, then started borrowing 7 years before the banks collapsed?

The banks were just the last straw, but that camel was getting overloaded for the last 7 years.

 

[WaftyCrank]

Well when you have spent years working in the public sector then spent years working for yourself and employing people and all the costs that incurs you'll have a realistic view on economics and waste.

Like yours is the only opinion that matters? You really ought not to make assumptions.

 

[WaftyCrank]

By the way this banks bolloxs has nothing to do with it, look at this countries borrowing figures from 2001 (when Gordon's Brown's first spending policies kicked in) and 2007 when the credit crunch happened.

Why was this country paying down it's debt until 2001, then started borrowing 7 years before the banks collapsed?

The banks were just the last straw, but that camel was getting overloaded for the last 7 years.

Well it's not bollocks its the truth. Had the financial collapse and subsiquent bail out of the banks not happened we wouldn't be in this mountain of debt. However it's easy to target the public sector workers so why not, please... continue!

 

[stender]

Letting everyone and their dog into the country and giving them a house, income support and nhs doesn't help.

lights fuse and steps away......

 

[GreyWing]

, please... continue!

Subsidising?

I'm seriously considering not, when people like me have left this country and stopped paying UK taxes. You and the rest of the socialist warriors can sit there paying themselves £400 a week + Pensions and contributing just £60'ish in tax and dream about how those figure adds up.

I really don't need to be here.. I could do all my web projects from abroad. It's nothing you said that makes me think this way, I've been thinking about it for months. Why do I really want to be taxed to hell to pay for all this.

But good luck when tax payers like me have gone and took their tax somewhere else, people may think again. You may also have 100% tax of my UK earnings, how about that? Zero.. spend wisely.

 

[edo]

The good news is that:

1. To be reading this thread you're alive, which is better than being dead.

2. You live in an age that is technologically more advanced than any in the past and therefore your living standards are higher than any past generation.

3. You're not a paedophile.

4. The best things in life are free.

5. Jesus is coming to save our souls.