.UK Drop Catching

[DavidL]

Hi All,

Can anyone tell me why drop catching in the UK seems to be done by hundreds of individual entities with various scripts?

In Australia there are 2-3 catching platforms which all have a similar model.

http://www.netfleet.com.au/index.php?a=expiring (my site)
https://www.drop.com.au/auction/?room=expired

I would have thought that this sort of model would be the ultimate 'end game' as only the players with the absolute leanest meanest scripts and maximum firepower would win and that maximum return would be generated by an auction system.

Doesn't make sense to me to see catchers charging flat rates to varied domains? Nor how can an individual with a bought script be competitive?

Is there a technological reason why so many different people have a shot at winning?

Thanks very much

David

 

[Edwin]

Nominet doesn't allow different entities to pool tags, it's against their current registrar rules. So it's not a technological reason but a legal one.

 

[DavidL]

Nominet doesn't allow different entities to pool tags, it's against their current registrar rules. So it's not a technological reason but a legal one.

OK thanks. So it's one tag per registrar/entity? And what exactly is a tag (pls excuse my ignorance)?

 

[foz]

Nominet doesn't allow different entities to pool tags, it's against their current registrar rules. So it's not a technological reason but a legal one.

I thought so too, so how does DomainCatch_co_uk get away with it?

 

[foz]

OK thanks. So it's one tag per registrar/entity? And what exactly is a tag (pls excuse my ignorance)?

TAG = Registrar

 

[foz]

TAG meaning http://www.nominet.org.uk/registrars/becomeregistrar/obtaintag/

Anti-avoidance terms http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/terms/anti-avoidance/

 

[DavidL]

Great - thank you so much for the info.

So last question... what limits does a registrar have using their sole tag? Is it a limit of create requests per second, day or number of registrations per day?

Noticed people saying they have 'slots left for today' etc so I presume these limits are quite severe?

Thanks once again

David

 

[foz]

Great - thank you so much for the info.

So last question... what limits does a registrar have using their sole tag? Is it a limit of create requests per second, day or number of registrations per day?

Noticed people saying they have 'slots left for today' etc so I presume these limits are quite severe?

Thanks once again

David

Polling limits http://www.nominet.org.uk/other/dac/realtimedac/realtimedacaup/

Slots available means that a catcher has room for a domain booking.

Some catchers only attempt to catch one domain per day while others may have a go for dozen+

 

[DavidL]

Some catchers only attempt to catch one domain per day while others may have a go for dozen+

I see. All domains drop at the same time do they? So going for 10 might dilute your chances rather than just going for one?

I thought so too, so how does DomainCatch_co_uk get away with it?

Looks like they just lease a script rather than pool registrars. The registrars using his script certainly aren't working together but competing.

Again thanks for your help

David

 

[foz]

I see. All domains drop at the same time do they? So going for 10 might dilute your chances rather than just going for one?



Looks like they just lease a script rather than pool registrars. The registrars using his script certainly aren't working together but competing.

Again thanks for your help

David

Random over a 24 hour period (92 suspended drop day).

DomainCatch collects 50% of the domain sale proceeds from each participant.

 

[DavidL]

So last question...

OK I lied. Very interesting, you see.

Why does no confident drop catcher publish a list of all dropping names each day (I presume they go into a state where they can't be renewed and will definitely drop) and get people to make offers/bids on all the dropping domains each day (there must be a few thousand?)

For the big names, surely hundreds of competitors will have their eye on it anyway so there's no disdavantage in publishing it is there? And they might scoop up dozens of 'long tail' names from the published list that otherwise would have gone by the wayside.

Related question: Why is no one or two catchers dominent. Is this because the continual refinements of the scripts over the years means that they are all virtually as good as they can possibly be so luck is a greater factor?

BTW if anyone wants to know anything about Aussie drops then let me know. Certainly happy to reciprocate on the information exchange There has been some great activity recently like PetInsurance.com.au for $16,500 last week and Electricity.com.au for $31,000 last month. And contrary to popular opinion o/s based registrants can still get involved if they wish.

 

[wb]

Why does no confident drop catcher publish a list of all dropping names each day (I presume they go into a state where they can't be renewed and will definitely drop) and get people to make offers/bids on all the dropping domains each day (there must be a few thousand?)

Lists of dropping domains each day are available, including over at DomainLore which is by the same person who runs DomainCatch. You can also place advanced bids on domains to show your interest in them, so I think that answers all your questions about the first point.

Regarding certain catchers being dominant, if you monitor the decent domains which drop they will generally go to a handful of people (there are exceptions of course, and as more people enter catching it's likely to continually evolve). My understanding is that these catchers were even more dominant a few years ago though when there were less people catching and when their scripts were working far better than anyone elses.

 

[foz]

OK I lied. Very interesting, you see.

Why does no confident drop catcher publish a list of all dropping names each day (I presume they go into a state where they can't be renewed and will definitely drop) and get people to make offers/bids on all the dropping domains each day (there must be a few thousand?)

For the big names, surely hundreds of competitors will have their eye on it anyway so there's no disdavantage in publishing it is there? And they might scoop up dozens of 'long tail' names from the published list that otherwise would have gone by the wayside.

Related question: Why is no one or two catchers dominent. Is this because the continual refinements of the scripts over the years means that they are all virtually as good as they can possibly be so luck is a greater factor?

BTW if anyone wants to know anything about Aussie drops then let me know. Certainly happy to reciprocate on the information exchange There has been some great activity recently like PetInsurance.com.au for $16,500 last week and Electricity.com.au for $31,000 last month. And contrary to popular opinion o/s based registrants can still get involved if they wish.

Some do e.g. DomainLore_co_uk. Others charge a monthly fee for drop lists. Nominet do not publish drop lists yet, unlike other ccTLD Registries around the world who do.

Theirs a good couple of dozen active TAGs who drop catch, and 50-100 get caught every day.

I see 5-10 TAGs being dominant at catching the cherries every day. They are mostly private (they will be kept or marketed to end users).

I've stayed away from .au due to the residency rule. If you have insight over this do please share.

 

[Systreg]

@ Netfleet,

Why does no confident drop catcher publish a list of all dropping names each day

It's against the Nominet terms for anyone to publish lists of domains online as far as I know, it was a rule they brought in not that long ago, not sure if it's daily lists or weekly/monthly ones, someone here will know.

(I presume they go into a state where they can't be renewed and will definitely drop) and get people to make offers/bids on all the dropping domains each day (there must be a few thousand?)

Any domain can be renewed right up to the drop day, and in to the drop day at any time before it actually drops.

For the big names, surely hundreds of competitors will have their eye on it anyway so there's no disdavantage in publishing it is there?

Not everyone sees the same names dropping, there will be a couple of thousand names drop per day, and lists normally only show about 1000 of them, even if you can get your hands on multiple different drop lists, that might only give you 1000 - 1500 at the very most out of the 2000 or so names dropping.

You may see some names on one list that aren't on another list, or you may have spotted a name dropping that's not on a list (if you're extremely lucky), so why would they advertise that (if they were allowed to) it and have more catchers against them?

 

[Edwin]

Bear in mind that nobody outside Nominet has a full list of all registered .co.uk domains. So all drop lists, public and private, are based on constantly refined "best effort" guesses as to what has or has not been registered yet (e.g. run the .com zonefiles against the .co.uk database, run dictionary files and word lists, compile your own data etc.) But there is no "definitive" list so different drop lists are genuinely different, and there is a modest opportunity to be exploited in the differences (if you know something's going to drop that not many other people know about your chances are better).

 

[DavidL]

Thanks guys - much appreciated.

Foz, if you want to get into .au domains, all you need to do is register a trademark in Australia. Eg 'fozonline' for example - doesn't matter can be anything.

Once you have that TM number, you can use it as an identifier whenever you need to reg a domain.

Would prob cost around $500 - $1,000 to do yourself and a bit of a hassle so not worth if for just a few domains. But if you plan on looking at hundreds, a few day's pain at the start is worth it.

www.tm.com.au will do it all for you too (for a fee) if you want.

 

[Edwin]

I don't really see the appeal of the .au market... Since all the drop catchers there operate auctions, isn't the "value" in the domains pretty much baked out of them at the very start? (I've seen quite a few go for AU$10,000 at drop time) In other words, instead of the new registrant making the big money (from $50 to $10,000) they are left with trying to flip an already very costly ($10,000) asset for a small multiple.

 

[DavidL]

I don't really see the appeal of the .au market... Since all the drop catchers there operate auctions, isn't the "value" in the domains pretty much baked out of them at the very start? (I've seen quite a few go for AU$10,000 at drop time) In other words, instead of the new registrant making the big money (from $50 to $10,000) they are left with trying to flip an already very costly ($10,000) asset for a small multiple.

Yes that's a good point. However, I would say is that the auctions only run for 24 hours so there's next to no chance to get an end-user (or even a domainer who isn't quick on his feet) motivated to analyse, value and bid in time. Trust me we've tried and we usually get a call back a week later 'About that domain name... is it still available?"

This means the prices tend to be 'wholesale' rather than retail so there's a decent opportunity to acquire then market to end-users at your leisure for a decent return.

The advantage of the auctions is you see every domain and have every opportunity to assess and win every domain you want. You put your proxies in and hope for a difference in valuation against your competitors.

But yeah you're right to get a return of $10K on a $50 catch isn't going to happen.

BTW what is the general quality level for .uk drops? Hard to measure quality but compared with .au maybe someone could give an indication? Eg so far this month, the bigger (>$1,000) .AU drops have been:

PetInsurance.com.au - $16,500
Editing.com.au - $1,000
Penguins.com.au - $1,100
WebDesignAdelaide.com.au $1,000
Developer.com.au - $2,300
Note.com.au - $2,000
BabyFurniture - $2,000
BabyCots.com.au - $1,000

Just for interest could someone indicate what the last two weeks have seen dropping in .uk for comparison. And if you have an idea of value (AU$=62p ish)

 

[foz]

Thanks guys - much appreciated.

Foz, if you want to get into .au domains, all you need to do is register a trademark in Australia. Eg 'fozonline' for example - doesn't matter can be anything.

Once you have that TM number, you can use it as an identifier whenever you need to reg a domain.

Would prob cost around $500 - $1,000 to do yourself and a bit of a hassle so not worth if for just a few domains. But if you plan on looking at hundreds, a few day's pain at the start is worth it.

www.tm.com.au will do it all for you too (for a fee) if you want.

Thanks. Wouldn't AUDA check that the TM does not match the registered domain names? or do you propose a Trademark for each .au domain name owned?

 

[DavidL]

Thanks. Wouldn't AUDA check that the TM does not match the registered domain names? or do you propose a Trademark for each .au domain name owned?

No auDA don't care about that. The TM can be completely irrelevant to the domain, just as the ABN can be. It's really used just as an 'anchorer' - an official connection to the ultimate entity holding the domain.

What you do have to be a little careful about is eligibility policy. You need to state a 'close and substantial connection' to the name. However monetisation (parking it) is considered a close enough connection for example.