.uk domain right

[Edwin]

This is Nominet's current position (as of V2):

Other than the exceptions we have already set out, we are not proposing to offer a right of first refusal to third level registrants of domains managed by other organisations e.g. .ac.uk, .gov.uk, .nhs.uk, .police.uk etc.

Doesn't mean it won't change again, but that's how things stand right now.

 

[Retired_Member38]

I know the logistics of it wouldn't work, but it would certainly be better overall if they did make exceptions.

Leeds.ac.uk - major university
leeds.gov.uk - official gov page of Leeds
leeds.co.uk - crap 4 page info site (that is for sale, basically just a holding page)

I don't think anyone could really argue against it being better if one of the first two got the .uk here

 

[Nigel]

I know the logistics of it wouldn't work, but it would certainly be better overall if they did make exceptions.

Leeds.ac.uk - major university
leeds.gov.uk - official gov page of Leeds
leeds.co.uk - crap 4 page info site (that is for sale, basically just a holding page)

I don't think anyone could really argue against it being better if one of the first two got the .uk here

So in what way would it improve Leeds University's presence on the internet if they were able to grab the .uk?. Nobody will then know by glancing at the url that Leeds.uk was the university whereas anyone looking at their present
url leeds.ac.uk knows immediately who they are. So universities, gov't depts (and charities) might want to get their hands on the new .uk but it will harm their presence on the internet.

 

[Retired_Member38]

So in what way would it improve Leeds University's presence on the internet if they were able to grab the .uk?. Nobody will then know by glancing at the url that Leeds.uk was the university whereas anyone looking at their present
url leeds.ac.uk knows immediately who they are. So universities, gov't depts (and charities) might want to get their hands on the new .uk but it will harm their presence on the internet.

It will improve their presence by catching all of the type in traffic (both from UK and abroad) that will assume that {city}.{countries main extension} will take them to some sort of official site.

At least giving it to the uni or the city you could argue makes sense for the general public... what benefit is there (outside of to the person who now owns it) to giving it to the person who's currently not using the .co.uK?

 

[Nigel]

It will improve their presence by catching all of the type in traffic (both from UK and abroad) that will assume that {city}.{countries main extension} will take them to some sort of official site.

At least giving it to the uni or the city you could argue makes sense for the general public... what benefit is there (outside of to the person who now owns it) to giving it to the person who's currently not using the .co.uK?

so you're advocating that all the new geographical .uk domains should be owned by the university, or local council, or parish council?

 

[Retired_Member38]

so you're advocating that all the new geographical .uk domains should be owned by the university, or local council, or parish council?

No, not at all.

I'm saying in an ideal world, there should be some .uk's that aren't just blindly handed out to 'earliest first' or '.co.uk wins' and should be done on the basis that there is a clear benefit to the general public for it to go elsewhere.

I know it won't/can't happen, but it would be good to see.

 

[Nigel]

No, not at all.

I'm saying in an ideal world, there should be some .uk's that aren't just blindly handed out to 'earliest first' or '.co.uk wins' and should be done on the basis that there is a clear benefit to the general public for it to go elsewhere.

I know it won't/can't happen, but it would be good to see.

Thanks for clarifying that. I think this kind of scenario shows why .uk should never proceed. And it shows why nominet chose the current system in the first place. It works well - every sector has its own extension and the public aren't confused.

 

[Stephen]

Leeds.ac.uk

No, not at all.

I'm saying in an ideal world, there should be some .uk's that aren't just blindly handed out to 'earliest first' or '.co.uk wins' and should be done on the basis that there is a clear benefit to the general public for it to go elsewhere.

I know it won't/can't happen, but it would be good to see.

I disagree.

Although it is not factual 'if there is a clear benefit' either way, I disagree that there would be a clear benefit as you have described.

If I'm looking for Leeds university, and seen in my Google list of results;

Leeds.ac.uk
Leeds.co.uk
Leeds.uk
Leeds.org.uk
Leeds.sch.uk

I would go to Leeds.ac.uk and after that Leeds.sch.uk

On the other hand I was looking for information on Leeds I would go to Leeds.uk and expect to see a commercial or county council site with relevant content. The content would matter not the owner.

It has been stated on a recent thread regarding compensation to .co.uk owners if they didn't get the .uk, you (and presumably others) would say "no" as the .co.uk would still work as it does now.
The same argument can be used for Leeds.ac.uk and if people stay with that system of third level domains helping to provide information as to purpose of the website.

 

[Retired_Member38]

I'm more thinking type ins rather than Google search results - the official sites for the leeds uni or the leeds council website are going to have so much domain authority that they will always rank top for those searches, so people will find them easily unless they make a mess of their search.

"Although it is not factual 'if there is a clear benefit' either way" - if someone typed in leeds.uk do you think they were more likely to be looking for the council site, the university site, or some garbage 1 page lander with no real information on it? I don't see how you could say there is anything other than a benefit to the public by one of the other two getting this particular domain.

 

[websaway]

I don't think anyone can cast aspersions towards undeveloped domain owners under the current circumstances.
Nominet have created so much uncertainty that it's folly to spend large amounts developing some names already owned.

 

[Stephen]

Leeds.uk to wikipedia.org

I'm more thinking type ins rather than Google search results - the official sites for the leeds uni or the leeds council website are going to have so much domain authority that they will always rank top for those searches, so people will find them easily unless they make a mess of their search.

"Although it is not factual 'if there is a clear benefit' either way" - if someone typed in leeds.uk do you think they were more likely to be looking for the council site, the university site, or some garbage 1 page lander with no real information on it? I don't see how you could say there is anything other than a benefit to the public by one of the other two getting this particular domain.

As stated if I typed in Leeds.uk I would expect to find a website with content about Leeds, attractions, history, where to stay, sport etc. whether it is by the Council or a private company.

I can say that, as what you are suggesting is unworkable.

I know in version 1 .uk, I suggested that content of all websites should be considered a factor, on who should be .uk and it is simply impractical.

Why not redistribute all current UK domains (.co.uk .org.uk) now, today based on content and benefit to the public?

Maybe we could set up a voting website!

Looking at the Google search results and content of those sites,
I would vote for giving Leeds.uk to wikipedia.org

 

[Nigel]

I don't think anyone can cast aspersions towards undeveloped domain owners under the current circumstances.
Nominet have created so much uncertainty that it's folly to spend large amounts developing some names already owned.

agree with you there. It's nearly a year to the day when nominet launched their ill conceived plan. The .co.uk domain market has been in limbo ever since. Why would any sensible UK business develop a .co.uk at the present time? It might be worth buying a .co.uk (with a decent date) but development could prove a costly mistake if the .uk was to be launched next year. But who knows what's going to happen? Nominet should throw in the towel now. The Data Protection Registrar ico.org.uk have just raised serious questions about security issues and misdirected emails if domains are owned at different levels (i.e. that will happen if the .co.uk and .uk are owned by different businesses). http://www.ico.org.uk/about_us/cons...level-domain-registration-in-uk-july-2013.pdf They actually cited the scenario of financial information going missing. Domainers were telling nominet that a year ago!! but nominet disgregarded the obvious and told us that the new domain would bring better security

I wonder if nominet expected us to be at this stage a year down the line? A third consultation will be devastating but I can't see them getting a decisive and clear answer. And I can see nominet stubbornly refusing to give in. An absolute shambles of their own making.

 

[Retired_Member38]

agree with you there. It's nearly a year to the day when nominet launched their ill conceived plan. The .co.uk domain market has been in limbo ever since. Why would any sensible UK business develop a .co.uk at the present time? It might be worth buying a .co.uk (with a decent date) but development could prove a costly mistake if the .uk was to be launched next year. But who knows what's going to happen? Nominet should throw in the towel now.

If they throw in the towel, I think massive damage is going to be done permanently. At least if they launch now we'll get over it and move on.

If they come out now and say okay v2 cancelled, we're not launching .uk, would you be willing to buy and develop monaco.co.uk? Bearing in mind I own the .org.uk and I am going to take the .uk under the last proposals if they come back with a v3 at some point in the future.

There is no way I will be buying or developing under those sort of circumstances - I'll need the set, or I'll need a .co.uk that likely wins under any circumstances, or more likely I'll need the .com instead

 

[Edwin]

If Nominet kill off the idea now, I don't see it coming back again in the meaningfully nearish future. It took 8 years between attempts last time (2004 to 2012), and this time it will ultimately be killed (if indeed it is killed) for reasons that are not going to go away/get any better with time - indeed, all the issues of confusion, phishing, misdirected emails, lack of need etc. etc. will get worse with every passing day and every domain registered. Regardless of how the domain system evolves, so long as there are *.uk domains the problems with the concept of .uk will remain and multiply.

Not to mention that all the failings of the concept are going to be on the record forever, given that much of V2 is going to be made public.

No, this is their big chance, and if they blow it we're not likely to see another...

 

[websaway]

If they throw in the towel, I think massive damage is going to be done permanently. At least if they launch now we'll get over it and move on.

If they come out now and say okay v2 cancelled, we're not launching .uk, would you be willing to buy and develop monaco.co.uk? Bearing in mind I own the .org.uk and I am going to take the .uk under the last proposals if they come back with a v3 at some point in the future.

There is no way I will be buying or developing under those sort of circumstances - I'll need the set, or I'll need a .co.uk that likely wins under any circumstances, or more likely I'll need the .com instead

If they shelve it now it would be the better of two evils.
Inconceivable damage has been done to the UK namespace and the reputation of Nominet through the concept and method of these proposals .

Nobody should expect Nominet to step down gracefully, if they do it will be through extreme pressure from above, not below.

 

[Retired_Member38]

I think shelving it only works if they can do it in a way that they can never ever come back for a 3rd try. I don't see how they could realistically (or legally) do that. Some Nominet board later on might fancy another crack at cashing in. Or Nominet might not be in charge of the UK name space at all and the government won't be able to help themselves and will cash in.

 

[Edwin]

I think shelving it only works if they can do it in a way that they can never ever come back for a 3rd try. I don't see how they could realistically (or legally) do that. Some Nominet board later on might fancy another crack at cashing in. Or Nominet might not be in charge of the UK name space at all and the government won't be able to help themselves and will cash in.

I think Nominet may be able to "poison the well" in their choice of words when rejecting the concept so as to make it close to impossible for anyone else to try again - for example, if the Secretariat team draw up an exhaustive list of all the "unbeatable" problems (the issues that arise regardless of the specific implementation of the concept) and publish that list as part of their rejection. Judging by their V1 summary, they certainly have the wordsmithing power on their team should they choose to go down that route.

Even if a new organisation comes along in future, the fact that it's a matter of public record that Nominet (who at the time were TRUSTED to run the UK namespace) rejected .uk for reasons that will never change will be sufficient impediment to anyone wanting to have another crack at it.

Not to mention that it's possible that either A) the new GTLD will succeed beyond everyone's wildest dreams (and the extension therefore becomes near-irrelevant) or B) the new GTLD flop as badly as many observers think they will, and therefore the sole rationale for opening up .uk goes away.

 

[Retired_Member38]

Its going to be hard for Nominet to poison the well to a level that it can never come back, without making the v1 and v2 attempt look like a colossal waste of time and money in the first place (and risking their own well paid jobs)

 

[Edwin]

Its going to be hard for Nominet to poison the well to a level that it can never come back, without making the v1 and v2 attempt look like a colossal waste of time and money in the first place (and risking their own well paid jobs)

That's exactly what consultations are for. Nominet can demonstrate that they listened, took the feedback on board (probably 1,200+ responses over V1 and V2) and acted accordingly. Their willingness to adapt would be the sign of a well-functioning organisation, not something to reproach them for.

 

[Retired_Member38]

I think it makes them look bad if they put out results showing that it is/was a horrendous idea and should never ever be considered at any point in the future.

Fair enough if they put out results saying we've weighed up both sides and its not going to happen... but that doesn't block it off from happening in a year or two.

I will never buy a domain like Monaco.co.uk if .uk is shelved.