Whats happening to this place?

[Aaron Clifford]

Everyday there seems to be more and more people joining up who are investing in awful trademarks and non UK tlds.

I know when I signed up here I didn't have a huge knowledge of domains but I knew a fair bit, a fair few of the people signing up now seem to not know much and seem to be ignoring the advice given!

I'd suggest if you are one of these people, take the advice from the acorn members like I did as it will save you money, and hopefully make you money.

 

[Edwin]

Some good advice.

It's also disheartening to see some of the "regulars" flushing very obvious TMs out of their portfolios at the same time as they're selling off other names.

Look, it's pretty simple: if you've been in the domain industry for a while and you KNOW what is TM or not, then do the right thing and hit "delete" inside your Nominet account and get rid of all the junk silently in one fell swoop! Posting it here for sale sends entirely the wrong message, especially to the newer/less experienced domainers who are looking for guidance.

 

[Retired_member41]

Yes I agree in part, but some tm's do allow the use of their mark in all sorts of ways, ppc, urls etc etc. Maybe they should buy names of cancers and diseases and park them with adverts on. Make money in an ethical way hey Aaron.

Does make me laugh when you see posts like this and in your signature you have a link to a URL of a disease that causes no end of worry in certain communities and not to mention the poor people who have it.

But as long as the click through rate is ok eh?

 

[Ashton]

Ah hem... I think you mean aaron?

 

[retired_member12]

Some good advice.

It's also disheartening to see some of the "regulars" flushing very obvious TMs out of their portfolios at the same time as they're selling off other names.

Look, it's pretty simple: if you've been in the domain industry for a while and you KNOW what is TM or not, then do the right thing and hit "delete" inside your Nominet account and get rid of all the junk silently in one fell swoop! Posting it here for sale sends entirely the wrong message, especially to the newer/less experienced domainers who are looking for guidance.

The problem with the TM approach is that whilst they are classed for use or application through the IPO, domain names are not classed. Domain names can be suitable for all sorts of unrelated activities, so why should every instance of a domain name matching a TM worry the registrant? Of principle importance surely should be the use of the domain name, and whether it abuses and takes advantage of the TM holder, a matter I suspect neither Nominet nor the 'experts' seem to be consistant with, only insofar as they tend to favour TM holders nevertheless.

If a registrant has the time to search through the IPO site and identify all possible TMs they have, then maybe they ought to simply direct them to a neutral non-earning page, or one which is clearly not taking advantage of any TM holder in question. Nominets' system allows these names to be registered without any restrictions, the least they should do pull a finger out of their arse and do a deal with the IPO to access their info to prevent live registration of such names. Nominet seems to me to have a weak and loose approach to the subject with no intention to address it, but is keen to wash its hands of any responsibility when the matter arises. Nice people over the telephone doesn't equate to a good company in my book, they should stop blaming their customer base for weaknesses in their systems.

 

[Edwin]

The problem with the TM approach is that whilst they are classed for use or application through the IPO, domain names are not classed. Domain names can be suitable for all sorts of unrelated activities, so why should every instance of a domain name matching a TM worry the registrant? Of principle importance surely should be the use of the domain name, and whether it abuses and takes advantage of the TM holder, a matter I suspect neither Nominet nor the 'experts' seem to be consistant with, only insofar as they tend to favour TM holders nevertheless.

This argument is tilting at windmills. It's smoke and mirrors trying to distract from the unpalateable truth that there are many domains that only one entity in the world is truly ENTITLED to own, the entity that created 100% of the latent value locked up in them through their marketing, advertising and promotion efforts.

Look, if you're reading this and you're holding domains that are composed of made-up words or compound phrases whose only POSSIBLE source of value is because of the branding somebody else has painstakingly built up, then you're one of the people I'm pointing the finger at. If not, not - this doesn't affect you (and well done, by the way).

I'm of course not talking about trademarks-that-are-also-generics like "orange" or "apple" but stuff like "Vaio" or "Verizon" or "McAfee" and that sort of thing, or "Red Bull" (yes, "red" is generic and "bull" is generic, but "Red Bull" only has value because of the drinks company - otherwise why not "Yellow Bull" or "Green Bull" or "Maroon Bull"?)

There are some people on here who are sadly very obviously both
A) Savvy enough to fully understand the distinction above
B) Mercenary enough to register the TM infringements anyway

Times change. The industry in 2010 is not the industry circa 1999 - if you want to be taken seriously, it's time to clean up your act if you're doing the kind of stuff I outlined above. No ifs, no buts, no prevarication, no dodging the issue, no specious wishy-washy counter-arguments. Just take a deep breath, get a cup of coffee ready, and sift through your portfolio to find the sacrificial victims, then take that list, paste it into Nominet's bulk delete form and go on with the rest of your life. Can't see the exercise taking more than a few minutes, tops.

Or don't - but don't expect to get much respect from me or other serious domainers if you decide your reputation is worth shredding in a public arena for a few miserable pounds...

NOTE: The "Can this make money?" test has never been a valid way to determine the acceptability of a given business practice, and it's certainly not a valid argument in favour of a particular course of action.

 

[retired_member12]

This argument is tilting at windmills. It's smoke and mirrors trying to distract from the unpalateable truth that there are many domains that only one entity in the world is truly ENTITLED to own, the entity that created 100% of the latent value locked up in them through their marketing, advertising and promotion efforts....

It isn't smoke and mirrors, nor is it intended to come over as that. If the IPO recognise TM classes Edwin, then so should Nominet. You reasoning is too simplistic in this instance.

 

[GreyWing]

It isn't smoke and mirrors, nor is it intended to come over as that. If the IPO recognise TM classes Edwin, then so should Nominet. You reasoning is too simplistic in this instance.

Spot on, there are distinctions in classes, reverse TM Hijackings and loads of other complicating factors.

There are some that maybe blantant but on further investigation turn out to legit.

My view on it now is not to judge anyone else in public, just concentrate on my own domains. If people want to take their chances then that is for them to justify against a DRS panel and weigh that off against peeing people off who might be future buyers.

 

[stender]

Are you talking about me per chance? when you quote Vaio? please do tell.

 

[Aaron Clifford]

I agree with edwin on this one.

I'd just like to see the end of trademarks, typos, and awful .com domains within this community.

 

[Edwin]

Are you talking about me per chance? when you quote Vaio? please do tell.

That was one I remembered seeing just recently. Didn't pay attention to who posted it, it's clearly a "problem domain" like the ones I was definining and for that purpose it was irrelevant who posted it.

 

[woopwoop]

The way I see it is each to their own.

It's easy to get pulled in to being judgmental, but I agree with the comment on classes of TM and I know that there is a massive range of the strength of TMs and how far a domain name could infringe on someone else's mark.

Then there's the whole deeper level debate on can someone own a word? Just like owning an idea, and if it really helps innovation...

Anyway I digress - as for a forum and changing rules based on an increase in TMs that could harm the industry, basically I haven't seen anything that I think is harming the site/domaining industry.

I confess when I started out I had one or two obvious TMs and let them drop. Even now, there may be one or two which are borderline:

I'll give you an example: fearfactor.co.uk
It's a familiar phrase, but arguably associated to the TV program.
I hope people don't respect me any less for this confession?

Two questions though:
1. Should this type of domain be allowed on the board or is it an example of a name that would need to be moderated?
2. Who decides where the line is?

Also I might not be popular for saying this, but we want to keep the 'industry' professional, and nice and clean, but almost every single one of us is/tries to be a hawk at times. By the nature of what we do we want to buy something as cheaply as possible and sell it for as much as possible (domaining/not developing)

Before you say it, I don't agree that this is the same as most other business.
I think most businesses focus on client relationships, repeat customers, building a business, feeling good about what's happening in the business and a load of other things...
When I develop websites (especially forums) I feel this, but when I buy a domain cheap just to sell high then I think all those transactions are void of any respect.

I know that I'm digressing a lot here, and I'm not focusing this on you Edwin (with all of your lovely, mouth-watering generics ), but as some would take a stand against people holding 'trademark' domains, people on the other side (non-domainers) often look in and see someone with hundreds/thousands of domain names (maybe generics) and they don't respect the portfolio owner. They just see a waste of potential and a bunch of names that they see as costing £5 but the person is selling them for £5000 and he/she has thousands of them. (Of course often the portfolio owner paid more than £5 when they acquired the domains).

I guess to summarise all of this stuff I've typed here, I'd say that I think holding obvious trademarks or typos isn't a good thing, and will likely get you into trouble at some point. But I think there are grey areas of trademarks. People learn and often listen to good advise: I've learnt a lot on Acorn. I also (perhaps wrongly) believe that receiving a solicitor's letter about a domain that infringes a TM is a domainer's right of passage.

Although we want a professional/clean industry (so that we can sell our domains for even more money to end-users! In a way very ironic don't you think?) maybe we need to be aware of the fact that we are hawks at times and that our perspectives (how domainers should operate) and others (especially outsiders: 'domainers are cybersquatters', or 'what a shame that person holding all those domains that should be developed into websites') can be very different.

If the main reason to create a more professional/clean industry is to bring more customers in and make more money, then there's more than one issue (trademarks) to consider.

My last thought, the reg fees would probably go up a lot if everyone was more selective about the names they registered.

Added: Edwin - I can't believe you're selling this name (you should be ashamed)
(I'm only joking, Edwin isn't really selling that name, I just manipulated the url - trying to insert some comic relief after my essay above)

 

[stender]

Firstly, I don't personally believe owning that domain and having affiliate links to sites selling their laptops is something that sony would be pissed off about. You would be increasing the visibility and sales of their goods. If they wanted that domain name they would of no doubt taken it from the previous owner/s. If they didn't want anyone else selling their products then you would have to goto a sony centre to buy one and not the likes of pc world. If i'm wrong they would no doubt get in touch, at which point I would hand it over no questions asked. I may be wrong, I may be naive but that's my thoughts. I don't profess to be an expert.

Secondly, If TM domains are an issue to acorn users I suggest you Lobby Alan and get them banned from the site. Then you won't have to whinge. I'm assuming they aren't currently? if they are I will remove immediately.

Thirdly, If you have a problem with someone have the balls to contact them instead of posting cryptic aspersions about them.

I am not a professional domainer, for me it's a hobby. I register names to develop and when not using my dac I will sometimes go for some names I think others may want in order to cover costs. If domaining stopped tomorrow it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, and therefore I'm not really interested in the politics or future of domaining. Not what you want to hear but que sera. Those views may change in the future but not likely when there's people standing on their soapboxes and wanting to create a domain equivalent of the community police. Telling people to delete their domains or have their reputation shredded could be construed as having fascist undertones by some. Is that the sort of place acorn is to become? When your a moderator you can start policing acorn domains, until that time may I suggest you get yourself a blog and those interested in your spoutings can listen if they so wish.
I use acorn because of the nice people and lite atmosphere on here, and not for political debate. If thats the way the forum is going then Alan please delete my account forthwith.
As for "getting respect from you" I can sleep soundly without it.

Thanks

For Sale - Vaiolaptops co uk £15.

 

[Edwin]

Thirdly, If you have a problem with someone have the balls to contact them instead of posting cryptic aspersions about them.

I already explained that I wasn't paying attention to who was posting what. I just remembered "vaio" was something I saw "in a thread" in the last couple of days so that seemed like as good an example as any. Don't worry, if I wanted to address somebody specifically with my comments, I would address them head-on! I've done that before many times on here and elsewhere, so I don't really see why you feel I somehow suddenly need to creep around and make "aspersions".

 

[Bailey]

I do think its a matter of self regulation, If your happy registering blatant TM infringements then you should willingly accept the consequences, including the distain of your peers.

Funny enough theres a piece on the daily mail website today about how conterfeit goods sales actually benefit the genuine luxury goods sellers (not quite the same, i know but still passing-off)

I last year i dropped a few domains with the word 'Disability' just because i didn't feel comfortable holding them - I think they lasted about three seconds on dropday - So each to our own. I like the old age saying of 'Good Karma'

 

[disruptive]

TM'd domains are always going to get registered by domainer's - unless we all form some sort of cartel to prevent even an errant newbie from registering TM'd domains. The pay off's are too huge so it does warrant the risk.

If you see a domain, then why not register it even if it is close to the mark [literally], because if you are looking for a small amount of money then it might be worth the rights owners settling out of court. Plus the extra cash from type-ins etc or any natural promotion. Its all down to the small cost of registering domains: it makes TM squatting more likely.

I doubt anyone makes much "real" money from TM'd domains as their brand ability is seriously limited as is their re-sale. Limited by the cost of litigation, so I cannot see big money changing hands - but then again if you look at the average price of some of the domains sold on acorn then I can see say getting £1000 for a domain could be worth having to quite a few members.

 

[rob]

I am not a professional domainer, for me it's a hobby. I register names to develop and when not using my dac I will sometimes go for some names I think others may want in order to cover costs. If domaining stopped tomorrow it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, and therefore I'm not really interested in the politics or future of domaining. Not what you want to hear but que sera.

I understand that point of view but that is the key difference, there are 'domainers' on here who are happy to make whatever they can and not give two hoots if their actions cause others issues now or later.

You lose a domain via the courts or DRS and that could be used against others in future cases. No skin off your nose, as you wont be affected.


In terms of Alan and Acorn, I think at some point there will be a sharpening up of the rules - but perhaps when his forum is the one that has meant a newbies gets legally shafted for several grand and they go after the posters and place where the 'advice' was given

Question is, do people take a lead and be proactive, or sit back shrug shoulders and blame others when that happens, be it Acorn/Alan/Nominet/123-Reg/Whoever?

 

[accelerator]

I could have sworn that that Trademark domains were banned by the Sales Forum rules, but when I just had a quick look, I couldn't see anything:

http://www.acorndomains.co.uk/fixed-price-domain-names-sale/announcements.html

If Admin wanted to ban blatant Trademark sales, then I'm sure a prominent message at the top of the board would help. I am against blatant Trademark domains, but as others have mentioned, there are plenty of grey areas.

Rgds

 

[Admin]

See forum rules at http://www.acorndomains.co.uk/faq.php

"10. No Company Names or Trade Marked domains may be promoted or published for sale."

Admin

 

[retired_member12]

I understand that point of view but that is the key difference, there are 'domainers' on here who are happy to make whatever they can and not give two hoots if their actions cause others issues now or later.

You lose a domain via the courts or DRS and that could be used against others in future cases. No skin off your nose, as you wont be affected....

I don't get your logic there Rob, they will be as much 'affected' as the 'others', who I take you to mean are the 'pros'. Surely a finding of fault will only go on to affect other transgressors, not these 'good guys'?

You can split the domainers into hobbyists and pros, both have similar objectives, however the pros presumably make/need to earn a living from their efforts. Consequently, these businessmens opinions are just as much influenced by self interest as the next man! More than likely they are content for the present set-up to remain frozen in time regarding registering domains in the UK, happy with the self regulation model of Nominet, happy with the DRS system, happy with Nominets' woeful lack of proactiveness to clarify and fine tune the domain name system in the UK in this area. So long as nothing rocks their boat, then that's OK.

Personally, I look at the Nominet model, and what seems to be a lack of commitment to thorny issues (of which TMs are one) and it makes me angry. These issues have been around for years, they have no responsibility for the domain registrations, and all litigation costs and responsibilities are out of their hands. The self regulation model and the reactive DRS system would make any self respecting civil servant cringe to a dried prune if implemented via a government department. Come on, all those 'independant' experts so worldly wise that you can pick any one expert to handle any DRS matter? Bullshit!

Take the IPO (the nearest government structure which deals with 'name' rights), it recognises the complications and complexities of 'naming', and has robust, clear, unambiguous guidelines and systems for this. Multiple TM name rights are part on the very reason the TM structure exists, it works extremely well!

There is no serious reason why the UK DNS couldn't be rolled up beneath the IPO umbrella within say a 2 year period. The problem in doing this however is routed in the current 2 year term, cheap registration Nominet model we all 'enjoy' today. If you made domain names a complusory 5 or better still 10 year term, then that in itself would discourage speculative registrations. Dont forget, a TM is only £20 a year anyway.

If the serious pros want to continue to protect their own interests, they a few soundings from them that they expect Nominet to bring in more robust and clear rules would be helpful. After all, Nominet and its Board are supposed to be the experts, not the guy sitting at home who buys 1 or 2 domains a month!