Domainers making themselves look unreasonable

[anthony]

What I get sick and tired of in these endless bloody .uk threads is the constant insistence that .co.uk should have primary rights over all other extensions. Really, it is getting quite tedious!

It's not enough that the vast majority of first rights registrants will be .co.uk anyway, there is a greedy fringe here who won't be happy until they deny the few .org.uk holders their small amount of rights based on age.

Such a selfish bunch of ba****ds!

 

[Murray]

co.uk's were sold as the flagship commercial extension of .uk domains.

Suddenly nominet pulls the mat out from underneath those businesses that invested in co.uk to give the potential new flagship commercial extension .uk" to an org.uk or me.uk domain owner? I find that ridiculous.

If org.uk owners were worried about protecting themselves, why didn't they register the co.uk in the first place?

They chose their extension because it fitted their organisation, and it still does, nothing has changed.

It's nothing to do with being selfish.

Think about this scenario too..

A domainer registered an org.uk in 2004, the co.uk which was registered before 1996 drops in 2005 and is caught by a domainer and since has been sold for xx,xxx

Would the business who bought the co.uk have paid xx,xxx have paid the same for the org.uk? not in a million years.

Now the .uk is being released and they wont get it. What a massive slap in the face and honestly an injustice.

org.uk owners not getting the .uk will not hurt them, just like not owning the co.uk hasn't hurt them

And if you think not having the co.uk has hurt them, why haven't you been championing for them to be handed over?.

 

[anthony]

If org.uk owners were worried about protecting themselves, why didn't they register the co.uk in the first place?

They chose their extension because it fitted their organisation, and it still does, nothing has changed...

Of course they chose, because choice was an option. Had that choice never existed, as in the case of .uk, then they would have taken the .uk, it's that simple. You assumption that .co.uk somehow has overall rights is evidently biased and flawed.

It's nothing to do with being selfish.

It's everything to do with it, because most domainers:

a- Have .co.uk portfolios.
b- Realize that drop-caught .co.uk domains, no matter how attractive, are highly likely to be second in line to .org.uk domains that pre-date them.

Think about this scenario too..

A domainer registered an org.uk in 2004, the co.uk which was registered before 1996 drops in 2005 and is caught by a domainer and since has been sold for xx,xxx...

(Good money for the domainers, carry on...)

Would the business who bought the co.uk have paid xx,xxx have paid the same for the org.uk? not in a million years.

Now the .uk is being released and they wont get it. What a massive slap in the face and honestly an injustice.

Perverse logic. It entirely underlines my original point too about selfish domainers. If the new owner paid £xx,xxx for it, then clearly that's a commercial decision, nothing more. It has nothing to do with rights. Nominet has always had a 'first come, first served' policy, now you want to pick and choose those exceptions who almost all have been the result of domaining activity!

org.uk owners not getting the .uk will not hurt them...

Prove it!

And if you think not having the co.uk has hurt them, why haven't you been championing for them to be handed over?.

Where have I made that statement? And why would I, or anyone else, champion one extensions right to hand over another? You've clearly gone off on a tangent!

 

[websaway]

What I get sick and tired of in these endless bloody .uk threads is the constant insistence that .co.uk should have primary rights over all other extensions. Really, it is getting quite tedious!

It's not enough that the vast majority of first rights registrants will be .co.uk anyway, there is a greedy fringe here who won't be happy until they deny the few .org.uk holders their small amount of rights based on age.

Such a selfish bunch of ba****ds!

If you don't want 90% taxation for highest earners, that doesn't necessarily mean you are a high earner. If you can see the big picture and the effects of high taxation without actually being a direct beneficiary of your opinion, then that's an ability to weigh up the overall pro's and con's.
To me it's not who should be entitled to what ( that was just a method of introduction by Nominet to appease the many ) It's about should .uk be introduced at all.

 

[anthony]

...It's about should .uk be introduced at all.

Well I suppose that's very much a different matter, and a valid discussion point of course.

However, in the event that it does go through, it's important to be seen, especially from Nominet's perspective, that you have reached as fair & balanced decision as possible. Just giving .co.uk automatic rights to the .uk would be seen by any organisation as unfair and without merit.

 

[Edwin]

Here are the issues:

Oldest registrant first is notionally "fairer" than .co.uk registrant wins, since it preserves first come first served for an extension (.uk) that Nominet are now saying is open to anyone, but it guarantees more phishing attacks and misdirected emails than .co.uk wins because the most confusion will be .co.uk/.uk.

.co.uk registrant wins is somewhat less dangerous (from the security aspect) but less fair, since it doesn't preserve first come, first served. It also (coincidentally? deliberately? irrelevant!) looks much more self-serving for domainers.

Both are bad solutions in the sense that the problem that they're trying to solve is itself bad. Both would be improved by making the process automatic rather than opt in i.e. "entitled" registrants get the domains automatically (and free of charge) for a period long enough for them to make up their minds what to do, rather than have to learn about the issue and stick their hand up during a notional 6 month window.

Beyond that, it's down to how you weigh the specific factors.

Best of all is unquestionably to preserve the status quo and get rid of the notion of .uk.

 

[Murray]

Well I suppose that's very much a different matter, and a valid discussion point of course.

However, in the event that it does go through, it's important to be seen, especially from Nominet's perspective, that you have reached as fair & balanced decision as possible. Just giving .co.uk automatic rights to the .uk would be seen by any organisation as unfair and without merit.

Releasing it would create have and have not's, meaning it could never be fair, it would just have to be "what is the least unfair"

My feeling is that .uk is just co.uk v2

They are trying to sell the same thing twice

 

[anthony]

...Both would be improved by making the process automatic rather than opt in i.e. "entitled" registrants get the domains automatically...

I cannot argue with that, it should indeed be automatic, with a strong emphasis on the issue of 'entitlement'.

 

[stender]

I would be interested to know how this is going to affect people on here. Has anyone looked at their domains to see what % they are likely to lose? likewise are they likely to gain any premium names from having .orgs?

It will leave a bitter taste in the mouth if someones .org blog is going to usurp your business you paid thousands for imho.

 

[Edwin]

I would be interested to know how this is going to affect people on here. Has anyone looked at their domains to see what % they are likely to lose? likewise are they likely to gain any premium names from having .orgs?

We will lose about 10% (under the current proposed mechanism). No .org.uk based gains of significance, but then we only have about 40 to begin with.

 

[websaway]

I would be interested to know how this is going to affect people on here. Has anyone looked at their domains to see what % they are likely to lose? likewise are they likely to gain any premium names from having .orgs?

It will leave a bitter taste in the mouth if someones .org blog is going to usurp your business you paid thousands for imho.

I think it's best not to analyse too much and retain an impartial view.

 

[stender]

Do you mean I shoulds remain impartial? I'm just nosey. I will be impacted though minor, but It is stopping me investing any money into future projects whilst this is looming

others can't stay impartial when they could lose their income.

 

[RobM]

Why do people talk about 'losing' domains? You will still retain the ones you have. A loss of opportunity is not a real loss. It is a reduction in potential.

 

[stender]

Why do people talk about 'losing' domains? You will still retain the ones you have. A loss of opportunity is not a real loss. It is a reduction in potential.

Just a term, yes you will still have your domain but are people not talking of it being watered down and losing it's exclusivity?

 

[Edwin]

Just a term, yes you will still have your domain but are people not talking of it being watered down and losing it's exclusivity?

Correct. You wind up with a new and very direct competitor where there wasn't one before.

World before .uk: .co.uk is undisputed king of the hill
World after .uk: who knows which of .uk or .co.uk will win in the long run, either way there's a battle going on

So you are "losing" the opportunity to ensure you win the .uk/.co.uk battle regardless of outcome by securing both domains.

 

[scottb]

Correct. You wind up with a new and very direct competitor where there wasn't one before.

World before .uk: .co.uk is undisputed king of the hill
World after .uk: who knows which of .uk or .co.uk will win in the long run, either way there's a battle going on

So you are "losing" the opportunity to ensure you win the .uk/.co.uk battle regardless of outcome by securing both domains.

I don't think there would be any real competition after a few years.
It seems inevitable that .uk will take over as it is simply shorter:
Easier to brand, easier to type and easier to say by two syllables.

As soon as big companies start dropping the '.co', then everyone will follow.

If Nominet were being sensible about it and automatically gave all existing .co.uk registrants first rights to the new domain, then I don't think there would be very many objections.

But even although the current release is flawed, most .co.uk name holders now have the opportunity to 'upgrade' their domains.

I have had similar .com and co.uk domains, and the amount of direct type-ins on the .co.uk names were minimal compared to the dot com, even when comparing to US traffic alone.

By population size the UK is around 60m compared to 300m
Yet direct type-ins are far less than 1/5 as much.
This proves to me, that for many people, the .co.uk address is just too much bother to speculatively type in.
Current selling prices also reflect this.

I figure most sites will have moved to the .uk within 2 or 3 years, use their existing domains to forward traffic and emails, then probably just let them drop after 5 years or so. They will be ancient history by then.

So there are going to be additional costs for a couple of years, specially for domainers with large portfolios.
But I think this is far outweighed by the higher values that will be attached to the direct.uk names - I would guess they will sell for at least twice as much.

 

[Systreg]

I've never understood the thing with people saying it's less to type, it literally takes 1 second to type .co.uk, I wouldn't save much time by not having to type the .co part

This proves to me, that for many people, the .co.uk address is just too much bother to speculatively type in.

As for people seeing it as too much bother to type in, I put a site on my tv-guide.co.uk site recently, it's had 985 visitors since July 22nd, 814 of those visits (82.6%) were direct type in traffic, it seems to me that people don't mind typing in .co.uk and a hyphen as well.

 

[julian]

Agreed.

The pain will be the first couple of years while transition takes place.

During the first stage of the transition I'd wager it would only take one big player like the BBC to kick it off to the public as credible and the 'new' extension.

Surely once people hear and see bbc.uk/weather, bbc.uk/news etc good as done.

The next stage will be the land rush of handreg mixed in with your DRS's, court cases, tm disputes etc, by the 99% of the UK population who had no idea it was happening - until it slapped em' in the face like a wet kipper

I don't think there would be any real competition after a few years.
It seems inevitable that .uk will take over as it is simply shorter:
Easier to brand, easier to type and easier to say by two syllables.

As soon as big companies start dropping the '.co', then everyone will follow.

If Nominet were being sensible about it and automatically gave all existing .co.uk registrants first rights to the new domain, then I don't think there would be very many objections.

But even although the current release is flawed, most .co.uk name holders now have the opportunity to 'upgrade' their domains.

I have had similar .com and co.uk domains, and the amount of direct type-ins on the .co.uk names were minimal compared to the dot com, even when comparing to US traffic alone.

By population size the UK is around 60m compared to 300m
Yet direct type-ins are far less than 1/5 as much.
This proves to me, that for many people, the .co.uk address is just too much bother to speculatively type in.
Current selling prices also reflect this.

I figure most sites will have moved to the .uk within 2 or 3 years, use their existing domains to forward traffic and emails, then probably just let them drop after 5 years or so. They will be ancient history by then.

So there are going to be additional costs for a couple of years, specially for domainers with large portfolios.
But I think this is far outweighed by the higher values that will be attached to the direct.uk names - I would guess they will sell for at least twice as much.

 

[Murray]

I figure most sites will have moved to the .uk within 2 or 3 years.

Moving domains isn't something businesses would (at least should) take lightly

You will have a transition period in google

You will lose link juice because of the 301

Even if it means you dropping just 1 place for a competitive search term it could cost you ££££ everyday.

And for what? the vanity of dropping the .co

Personally I wouldn't bother switching any existing sites to .uk

Future projects though id start on .uk

 

[sdsinc]

Fixing what ain't broken.

Hint: follow the money, always.