4th December - Drop List Roundtable

[RobM]

Who runs the auction, provides support, infrastructure, payment processing, chases non-payers, verifies transfers, etc? Nominet aren't an auction house nor do, I suspect, they want to be. Who foots the bill? There is a reason nominet doesn't deal with the general public - simply it costs far too much for them in support and the day-to-day running of millions of potential clients. Much easier to deal with a few thousand tags who, in turn, deal with the combined 10 million registrations. This 'utopia' view of business where the general public get things for nothing on the same level as a paid up tagholder with lots of time and money invested is not reality. Might as well go into starbucks and either ask to make the coffee yourself for free or refuse to pay more than coffee from a supermarket.

*edit because people who already agreed might not agree with the next part
The absolutely fairest way is for *tagholders* to submit a list each day/week and then nominet use some lottery software to 'pick a name from the hat'. That of course will still give multitaggers an increased chance but in a hat with potentially thousands of names it'd cost them more than the domain is likely worth. An increase in tagholder fees *for everyone at the same level* would help stamp that out. Why don't they do that? Because they don't have to.
However there is absolutely no reason why the general public should have the same chance. They don't pay for it.

 

[Siusaidh]

Fair issues to raise, Rob.

How many domains per day do you think people would actually bid £50 for to initiate bidding? I'd hazard a guess at around 100-200. All the rest would drop and be available as usual.

It would take a small team to run a procedure like that.

Let's imagine a possible day's sale:

£1000 x2 = £2000
£500 x10 = £5000
£250 x 15 = £3250
£100 x 30 = £3000
£50 x 60 = £3000

Daily Revenue = £16,250 (and I think I've been quite conservative about the prices).

Annual Revenue = £5,931,250

I figure that would pay for the service.

On top of all that, Nominet have their regular £4 for all the rest of the dropping domains as usual.

But the new thing would be that you have a level playing field in terms of access.

 

[RobM]

Now deduct the cost of software, technical infrastructure, support (this costs a LOT). Do you take people off existing work or employ new people. Either way it'll cost you either in wages or manpower. That's just the start. So again.. why would they take that upon themselves when they have tagholders? Also I doubt people would bid £50 for 100-200. Most days there are at most ten backorders at various sites. There is no evidence to back that up. Why £50? Surely that's unfair to the public. £25 would be more reasonable wouldn't it? Really as domains only cost £5 that would make more sense I would have thought to start the auction. After they are registered where are they housed? Nominet don't do (or want to) public facing registrars.. that's why they have tagholders. Who handles the maintenance of the domain?

 

[Siusaidh]

why would they take that upon themselves when they have tagholders?

Because it's a fairer way, in providing equal access to the public.

With the system I propose, part of the bidding process would require nominating a receiving registrar, and at the point of registration that is where the domain goes, with the bidder as registrant. No ongoing support costs for Nominet, more than for any other domain.

If you're telling me no-one here would run an auction house on this basis for Nominet, for £5 million pounds a year (or really, far, far less) I'm amazed.

 

[RobM]

The problem is you've just fabricated that figure and have no costs so don't be amazed.

 

[Siusaidh]

That's a fair point. Good thing I'm not on Dragon's Den!

But I'm questioning the idea that the cost of running a daily auction of 1 or 200 domains would exceed the revenue you could raise.

I guess we should ask you or Denys. Admittedly this would have the added detail of having to integrate the actual registration for the winning bidder, but that's Nominet's skillset already.

 

[RobM]

Well from my point of view I have never seen 100-200 domains backordered. I also never see that at other places. Rarely more than 10. Out of those there is sometimes only a couple that would make reasonable money at auction and most days there are none.
However where did you get £50 from? Why not £5?

Anyway I realise we have gone quite a bit off topic. I doubt nominet would entertain this idea so the only question is what do they have planned for us regardless of the lip service they are paying us. Judging by what I've seen in the system recently I'm guessing a ROR style system with tiered payment for either quota or speed. They clearly have the ability to throttle where they want and of course they already do this with the delayed DAC - it's tag/ip based though now I suspect. It would make more sense for them to get rid of the DAC entirely though - I doubt this is being used much outside of dropcatching and must be an expensive system for them to 'maintain'/downgr..*cough*..upgrade.

 

[Siusaidh]

Well, my view is that at £5 or £10 these are not names most drop-catchers would be worried about anyway, so just let anyone register them manually. The pressure on the system is created by demand for a much smaller number of names which are more valuable. That's why I suggest a starting bid of £50 that cuts out the dross and reduces the burden on the auction system.

Whether that is 10 names a day or 100, if that meant people could have equal chances to access those names, then in my view that is the fairest system.

Anyway, it's just my suggestion, and I doubt they will listen to me, because I think you're right to surmise that they probably already have a favoured outcome. For me, the issue is fairness. The internet is for all internet users, and at present a very small number of people have disproportionate access to the DNS, and I think that's a pity. Whether Nominet have an interest in fairness I'll leave to others to debate.

But I think *everyone* should have direct registration rights at the point a name becomes available, at whatever the market price turns out to be for a domain, based on a fair auction. I honestly believe an auction system could be run from the revenue it would raise. I can't demonstrate that, or prove it: that would be for Nominet to explore. My view is that even if it only broke even, it would be the right thing to do. Personally I think it would increase their revenue.

 

[RobM]

I just phoned the industrial baker that supplies our local supermarket to buy some bread direct from him. He said he didn't deal with individuals. I even offered him twice as much for two loaves of bread (very generous offer). He said he wasn't interested. I think it's unfair that I don't have direct access rights. Seems he'd rather have one client buying a thousand loaves than a thousand clients buying those loaves (even for a slight increase). I guess the act of dealing with a thousand people probably wouldn't be worth his time.

 

[Siusaidh]

That's a good image, Rob. It made me smile because it was clever.

And yet Nominet deals with hundreds of thousands of registrants, who can log on to their Nominet accounts and view their domains. Any of them can pay to transfer a domain. They have individual interfaces with 100,000s of registrants.

On an average day, maybe 500 people go into my local Tescos and buy things. It's not a problem. Then why should Nominet have a problem selling 100 domains a day to 100 people (or 10 domains a day to 10 people if your own conjecture is right)? No need for shelf-stackers. No need for fridges. No need for physical products. No need for lorries. They are not selling bread, they're selling digital strings of letters. The volume of trade involved would possibly be less than the number of people running scripts at present. The question is could be relatively easily done (say, by a team of 5 people)?

I suspect it could. I think people here could do it, and probably would for a fair wage.

The difference would be that it was fairer.

That's all I'm saying.

Thanks for the conversation. Got to log off just now, but best wishes.

 

[Ben Thomas]

If you have evidence that someone created 8 companies in order to cheat the RoR then why not publish the details and pass to Nominet in the form of a complaint or raise it at the AGM, I'm sure the other members would want to know.

No point. I believe @RobM did this on many occasions with evidence and they did sweet FA.

 

[Whois-Search]

While we are on the topic of fake members...

Who is @Gill ? You seem to have only made 15 posts (14 of them in this thread).

There is only one person who writes like that and it’s the same person you speak of:

I've worked with David Thornton to bring about this review.

Is this another one of your alter ego’s David ?

There was apparently talk of sealed bids at the Nominet event in Leeds, perhaps Andrew Bennett can expand on that?

There was one slide from Nominet which detailed a list of responses so far....I think sealed bids idea actually came from @bb99 but I’m losing track of who is who.

Nominet haven’t proposed any solution and are being deliberately obtuse.

 

[Siusaidh]

Gill also posted quite recently inviting offers on 1000 domains, registered to Sean and Gillian Warburton. I think you'll find she is bona fide. I have found her pleasant in threads where we've commented to each other. She has previously said that she thinks valuable dropping domains should be auctioned and the proceeds given to charity, so no, I don't think she's fake.

 

[Whois-Search]

Ok sorry Gill if you are real. I’d be interested to know what was worked on by Sean/Gill and David Thornton?

I just phoned the industrial baker that supplies our local supermarket to buy some bread direct from him. He said he didn't deal with individuals. I even offered him twice as much for two loaves of bread (very generous offer). He said he wasn't interested. I think it's unfair that I don't have direct access rights. Seems he'd rather have one client buying a thousand loaves than a thousand clients buying those loaves (even for a slight increase). I guess the act of dealing with a thousand people probably wouldn't be worth his time.

Yes exactly and Nominet have said they no longer want direct registrations (that is coming next).

Even the Estonians don’t register names direct in their registry auction:

https://www.internet.ee/domain-auctions

You get a code to register it with a registrar.

 

[Gill]

Ok sorry Gill if you are real. I’d be interested to know what was worked on by Sean/Gill and David Thornton?

Andrew, not everything is a conspiracy. I closed my account because I was spending too much time on here and the conversation had become dominated by the rantings of one person and you know what they say about arguing with fools. Gill set-up this account to sell a few names and against my better judgement I couldn't resist borrowing it to voice an opinion on this.

I contacted David earlier this year to express my concerns about the weaknesses in Nominet's systems and to document what these are. I asked for his help to get the powers that be to fix things and when I questioned why nothing was happening he escalated it to board level.

I don't mind admitting that despite various threats and promises the weaknesses still exist, I don't know if that's because there isn't the will to fix things or because they have decided that the current system is no longer fit for purpose but I'm told that this consultation is aimed at finding a workable alternative.

I'm not a fan of public consultations, it's the role of management to find solutions to these sorts of problems. It's a very European way of doing things, the idea of collective responsibility which actually means that decisions take for ever, the solution is usually a compromise and nobody is accountable for anything.

As for thinking I was David, you could pay me no greater compliment

 

[Whois-Search]

Andrew, not everything is a conspiracy. I closed my account because I was spending too much time on here and the conversation had become dominated by the rantings of one person and you know what they say about arguing with fools. Gill set-up this account to sell a few names and against my better judgement I couldn't resist borrowing it to voice an opinion on this.

ahh so this is Sean not Gill - no conspiracy just like to know who I’m talking to.

I contacted David earlier this year to express my concerns about the weaknesses in Nominet's systems and to document what these are. I asked for his help to get the powers that be to fix things and when I questioned why nothing was happening he escalated it to board level.

That would be why Nominet are reviewing things then if David pushed it at board meetings.

I don't mind admitting that despite various threats and promises the weaknesses still exist, I don't know if that's because there isn't the will to fix things or because they have decided that the current system is no longer fit for purpose but I'm told that this consultation is aimed at finding a workable alternative.

The consultation questions on drop lists are very vague and do not mention the DAC.

What are they going to replace it with is the question ?

I'm not a fan of public consultations, it's the role of management to find solutions to these sorts of problems. It's a very European way of doing things, the idea of collective responsibility which actually means that decisions take for ever, the solution is usually a compromise and nobody is accountable for anything.

What if the board consists of two of the largest registrar groups and a former disgruntled secondary market expert ? What will they decide to do ?

I’d much prefer the old Nominet consultations where all responses were published.

As for thinking I was David, you could pay me no greater compliment

Well I’m sure he’s getting paid and we are not

 

[Gill]

ahh so this is Sean not Gill - no conspiracy just like to know who I’m talking to.

It's Gill's account and she's tired of getting emails saying someone replied to her posts when it's actually me so I'll bow out after this reply.

That would be why Nominet are reviewing things then if David pushed it at board meetings.

I understand he'd been seeking help from the technical guys but was seemingly getting nowhere fast. I suggested given Nominet knew of the flaws, by refusing to fix them they were complicit in allowing a handful of members - including myself - to have an unfair advantage over the majority.

I let David know that I was going to seek a legal opinion on the matter and at that point Mark Wood was brought into the conversation and assurances were made that it was being taken seriously.

The consultation questions on drop lists are very vague and do not mention the DAC.

The consultation is a waste of time and effort in my opinion. It feels like the Brexit debate where everyone has an opinion but even those on the same side can't agree a solution.

What are they going to replace it with is the question ?

What if the board consists of two of the largest registrar groups and a former disgruntled secondary market expert ? What will they decide to do ?

Andrew, I know we rarely see eye to eye but it's your methods I disagree with not your message. When I say I dislike public consultations, I don't mean it's for the board to decide. A boards role is to scrutinise not to manage and this is an operational matter and a decision that should be made by management. If the renumeration is anything to go by, the board has appointed the very best minds to run the company so make them earn their keep!

I’d much prefer the old Nominet consultations where all responses were published.

As I say, I'm not a fan of consultations, I think management should be more accountable.

 

[Whois-Search]

I understand he'd been seeking help from the technical guys but was seemingly getting nowhere fast. I suggested given Nominet knew of the flaws, by refusing to fix them they were complicit in allowing a handful of members - including myself - to have an unfair advantage over the majority.

I let David know that I was going to seek a legal opinion on the matter and at that point Mark Wood was brought into the conversation and assurances were made that it was being taken seriously.

Interesting - thanks for letting us know about the legal opinion I didn’t know that.

So all three of those consultation topics are Nominet effectively covering itself legally.

What better way to get rid of the DAC flaws and legal threat (plus the members and complaints that go with it) by introducing a timed drop list ?

Then make out the wider membership agrees with it in a public consultation....

 

[stitchbob]

Well, my view is that at £5 or £10 these are not names most drop-catchers would be worried about anyway, so just let anyone register them manually. The pressure on the system is created by demand for a much smaller number of names which are more valuable. That's why I suggest a starting bid of £50 that cuts out the dross and reduces the burden on the auction system.

All you've actually done here is introduce a third tier for backorders. Want a domain but don't want to preorder it from Nominet and guarantee you'll have to pay at least £50? We'll wait for it to drop through the normal process and if we catch it, you only pay £35, or we put it to auction ourselves as we do now. Obviously if the domain goes to a Nominet auction we can't catch it, but then you can simply join the Nominet auction anyway - you're no worse off.

I normally chase 10-20 domains per day, and I haven't caught any on behalf of anybody else for over a month, and only one or two that I wanted myself, so something different is clearly happening out there. A lot of domains which I've missed are, IMO, exactly the "dross" that you'd think would be cut out by a £50 minimum.

 

[Whois-Search]

Did anyone go today ?