Who's Holding BTC?

ian · Oct 23, 2020

Adam H said:
How does one go about getting a wallet, where from and what are the ups and downsides ? Do we still have to mess about with flash drives and bollox to keep them safe ? I'm more likely to corrupt or lose a flash drive than I am to get it robbed off my phone lol

The safest way to hold Bitcoin is on a Ledger or Trezor (only buy from them direct, make sure unit is sealed). It is a USB style device with a UI for transactions, but losing it isn't a problem, the problem is if you lose the seed phrase/key which is essentially the key to access the wallet, no matter which provider you use (they are interchangeable).

Others have recommended alternatives for ease that you can run from your mobile phone but still provide you with a seed phrase (typically 12 or 24 words). Keep that, write it down, store safely.

Electrum is good for Bitcoin from a computer (but complex), there are others like blockchain.com, exodus etc for mobile.

Rule of thumb, "Not your keys, not your Bitcoin", which references just holding funds on an exchange; an absolute no unless day trading.

You might want a wallet for Ethereum too, which also covers a large number of ERC-20 tokens. Without doubt the easiest to use is Metamask, and might be a good starting point to get use to how it all works (doesn't work for Bitcoin).

You have to be extremely careful when transferring funds between addresses; get anything wrong and the funds are gone for good. Always copy the address, never duplicate it, and triple check it always. Always recommend you send a small amount first to check it works, and monitor 'gas' fees (what you pay the miner to process your transaction) as they can be high at times, but equally you can set them too low that it takes an age for funds to move.

Best places to buy/invest in Bitcoin and others would be Coinbase, or Kraken. KYC will be needed to deposit/withdraw fiat, which is why I've mentioned only those two.

Ben Thomas · Oct 23, 2020

Only thing that has held me off from purchasing into Bitcoin, was the fact that I'm bitter as hell about missing such a good opportunity

but more importably it's the complexity of it. We've all heard the horror stories about the "would be" millionaires who lost their hard drive, or accidentally wiped out their wallet lol. Jesus. I'm just glad I'm not one of them. I mean, how would you go about your life knowing that you had £50 of Bitcoins on a hard drive somewhere since 2009

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/20/man...h-of-bitcoins-and-city-wont-let-him-look.html

RIP to that guy.

Love hearing about the success stories though. What a life.

dee · Oct 23, 2020

Yeah... thats a peach of a story. Poor guy.

Ive moaned about this before, but i had set up to mine in about 2010, got red herringued by work and just never got back to it. Never pressed go. What a muppet with 20/20 hindsight etc

Admin · Oct 23, 2020

Ben Thomas said:
Only thing that has held me off from purchasing into Bitcoin, was the fact that I'm bitter as hell about missing such a good opportunity but more importably it's the complexity of it. We've all heard the horror stories about the "would be" millionaires who lost their hard drive, or accidentally wiped out their wallet lol. Jesus. I'm just glad I'm not one of them. I mean, how would you go about your life knowing that you had £50 of Bitcoins on a hard drive somewhere since 2009

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/20/man...h-of-bitcoins-and-city-wont-let-him-look.html

RIP to that guy.

Love hearing about the success stories though. What a life.

I agree, it would be hard to get your head straight again. I don't know how you'd live with it. Strange how he never kept a copy of the seed phrase. Terrible article BTW...bitcoins dont live on the device only the private keys do.

ian · Oct 23, 2020

Trauiner said:
The 'average person' use services like Coinbase etc. Paypal isn't going to bring anything new that a company like Coinbase doesn't already (apart from brand recognition and trust.)

The average person doesn't use anything at all, which is why PP could be a quick easy gateway into 'just buying a bit' and storing it on their system so no technical knowledge required.

Coinbase has 35 million customers who know a little about crypto. PP has 286 million customers, many of them don't know what Bitcoin is, that is the market.

Admin · Oct 23, 2020

Yep, our man Trauniner doesn't get it. If you've ever been through KYC, holding your Passport next to your face on a webcam, done an online interview, tried to use localbitcoins etc you'd understand. Most people haven't heard of coinbase, they have Paypal. Hundreds of millions even have an account, they can simply sign in and buy crypto. Game changer for those interested who have never found the time to understand crypto or learn how to buy it and who from.

Murray · Oct 23, 2020

Trauiner said:
Bitcoins problem on grabbing the 'average person' market, isn't access; it's what use and value it provides.

When the general public hear someone bought bitcoin for $4000 in March and it went to $25,000 in a year or two they will flock to it to invest

They will probably be getting in on the end when it's spiking, get spanked in the short term and sell at a loss out of fear but that's bubbles

Admin · Oct 23, 2020

@Trauiner - OK you want to be right and need to be right so you are right. See ya...I'm off to spend some bitcoin!

ian · Oct 23, 2020

Trauiner said:
That's a different issue alltogether.

The average person doesn't use Bitcoin because they have literally no reason to. Why do you think that will change when they can use Paypal to buy it?

To me, it's just this constant problem with BTC holders, where they chase dreams and reason of what will cause them to get rich.

Bitcoins problem on grabbing the 'average person' market, isn't access; it's what use and value it provides.

Same can be said for gold, yet millions invest in that with no intention of spending it. PP is an immeasurable opportunity for those with little knowledge to buy some, rather than a vehicle of payment (which I've never subscribed to personally).

I'm not chasing dreams but was at the start of my journey. No different for anyone starting today.

ian · Oct 23, 2020

Trauiner said:
It's not about being right. Infact, I hope I'm wrong as I'll make a lot of money.

You are invested despite your alternative view?

ian · Oct 23, 2020

Trauiner said:
If it does cause a massive bubble, it's going to leave BTC in a very bad place and the average user put off for life. This large bubble BTC holders are holding out for, could be the very thing that ruins BTC from ever being mass adopted.

That could be said since 2009, massive bubbles, huge 90% drops, yet it keeps growing.

Murray · Oct 23, 2020

Trauiner said:
They've been hearing that for ever and most people think it's a scam or something; as they don't understand it properly.

That's why paypal adopting it is big, trust and lower barrier to entry

Trust+lower barrier to entry+fear+greed = $$$$$$$$$$ bitcoin

ian · Oct 23, 2020

Trauiner said:
I've traded a few million pounds in trading volume of BTC (not profit of course, just volume), so I'm invested in that way.

I still hold quite a decent amount of BTC but my only alternative view is that Paypal will not be the gamechanger for BTC, that people think it will be.

The average user still needs to understand what BTC is and what value it provides them; which at present isn't much apart from a potential get rich quick scheme. (Which we know how that always ends up.)

I agree with the point that PP isn't the silver bullet, but anything that brings potential greater understanding and adoption to the masses can't be seen as anything but a positive. There is no bigger platform out there to offer this as an option to the 'average' person; but it isn't going to be what shifts the market, institutional buy in will, and has been the cause of recent highs.

Bitcoin is still at the beginning of a long journey and despite the price fluctuations, has been much less volatile than gold, stocks, etc, in their infancy. We might look back on today thinking Bitcoin is expensive to buy right now, but might actually have been a bargain at this valuation. From what you've said though, you appear to trade it, rather than invest in it, so expect that might be why you don't view it in the same way; I see it as a long term investment.

dee · Oct 24, 2020

As institutional big boys get involved ( as they are ) it will filter down. I don't think it will ever become the digital currency of the masses as its no where nimble enough, and there are far better alternative options. It is however increasingly being seen as a store of wealth though, so digital gold. I think as @ian said, there's a long way 'up' still to go and in 15 years we'll be facepalming at the current price.

Ben Thomas · Oct 24, 2020

It won't be, because of what I believe is happening right now. Once COVID runs its course and is "normalised" they will launch their "digital health passport", soon enough, cashless society will arrive and a new one world digital currency. It's coming.

websaway · Oct 24, 2020

dee said:
As institutional big boys get involved ( as they are ) it will filter down. I don't think it will ever become the digital currency of the masses as its no where nimble enough, and there are far better alternative options. It is however increasingly being seen as a store of wealth though, so digital gold. I think as @ian said, there's a long way 'up' still to go and in 15 years we'll be facepalming at the current price.

What underpins any guaranteed value above zero. Nobody has ever launched another gold but anyone can launch an invisible digital currency.

ian · Oct 24, 2020

websaway said:
What underpins any guaranteed value above zero. Nobody has ever launched another gold but anyone can launch an invisible digital currency.

It's virtual, not invisible. Demand underpins it, same as any other asset class, a perceived value.

dee · Oct 24, 2020

websaway said:
What underpins any guaranteed value above zero. Nobody has ever launched another gold but anyone can launch an invisible digital currency.

100% completely valid point. But what underpins most things these days ?...acceptance ... as far as i'm aware GBP is commonly perceived as being pegged to gold. Used to be. Not any more , in fact since 1931. Its its value determined only by acceptance by the national and international economy.

Current market cap of BTC is about 200 billion and on the way up. It's gaining acceptance.

websaway · Oct 25, 2020

ian said:
It's virtual, not invisible. Demand underpins it, same as any other asset class, a perceived value.

Semantics aside. Asset values are determined by rarity and supply and demand. My question was really around the fact that gold cannot be replicated but a virtual currency can, that's ok if something underpins the value, but was try to find out if anything other than mostly speculation dictates it's value. Basically seeing what makes it different to any other pyramid scheme.

websaway · Oct 25, 2020

dee said:
100% completely valid point. But what underpins most things these days ?...acceptance ... as far as i'm aware GBP is commonly perceived as being pegged to gold. Used to be. Not any more , in fact since 1931. Its its value determined only by acceptance by the national and international economy.

Current market cap of BTC is about 200 billion and on the way up. It's gaining acceptance.

I gather by replies so far the answer to my question is nothing underpins it other than the desire to use it or hold it based on the desire to create profit. that's ok it's as i thought it was. If it could not be replicated then that in itself would underpin a value, so uniqueness value would be something to actually hang one's hat on.