20i Domains

Who's Holding BTC?

Discussion in 'The Bar' started by Hay, Aug 18, 2020.

  1. dee

    dee Well-Known Member Acorn Supporter

    Joined:
    May 2013
    Posts:
    2,189
    Likes Received:
    310
    As institutional big boys get involved ( as they are ) it will filter down. I don't think it will ever become the digital currency of the masses as its no where nimble enough, and there are far better alternative options. It is however increasingly being seen as a store of wealth though, so digital gold. I think as @ian said, there's a long way 'up' still to go and in 15 years we'll be facepalming at the current price.
     
  2. Domain Forum

    Acorn Domains Elite Member

    Joined:
    1999
    Messages:
    Many
    Likes Received:
    Lots
    articles.co.uk
     
  3. Ben Thomas

    Ben Thomas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2018
    Posts:
    1,721
    Likes Received:
    219
    It won't be, because of what I believe is happening right now. Once COVID runs its course and is "normalised" they will launch their "digital health passport", soon enough, cashless society will arrive and a new one world digital currency. It's coming.
     
  4. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2007
    Posts:
    5,152
    Likes Received:
    131
    What underpins any guaranteed value above zero. Nobody has ever launched another gold but anyone can launch an invisible digital currency.
     
  5. ian

    ian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Posts:
    4,026
    Likes Received:
    292
    It's virtual, not invisible. Demand underpins it, same as any other asset class, a perceived value.
     
  6. dee

    dee Well-Known Member Acorn Supporter

    Joined:
    May 2013
    Posts:
    2,189
    Likes Received:
    310
    100% completely valid point. But what underpins most things these days ?...acceptance ... as far as i'm aware GBP is commonly perceived as being pegged to gold. Used to be. Not any more , in fact since 1931. Its its value determined only by acceptance by the national and international economy.

    Current market cap of BTC is about 200 billion and on the way up. It's gaining acceptance.
     
  7. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2007
    Posts:
    5,152
    Likes Received:
    131
    Semantics aside. Asset values are determined by rarity and supply and demand. My question was really around the fact that gold cannot be replicated but a virtual currency can, that's ok if something underpins the value, but was try to find out if anything other than mostly speculation dictates it's value. Basically seeing what makes it different to any other pyramid scheme.
     
  8. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2007
    Posts:
    5,152
    Likes Received:
    131
    I gather by replies so far the answer to my question is nothing underpins it other than the desire to use it or hold it based on the desire to create profit. that's ok it's as i thought it was. If it could not be replicated then that in itself would underpin a value, so uniqueness value would be something to actually hang one's hat on.
     
  9. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2004
    Posts:
    11,012
    Likes Received:
    387
    Something does underpin its value, a multi-billion decentralised Server network....you know ....like the internet...that seemed to take off a bit. It's a significant barrier to entry for new crypto currencies.
     
  10. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2007
    Posts:
    5,152
    Likes Received:
    131
    thanks, so for now the cost of replicating it is a barrier to new entrants. Certainly when any pyramid scheme that I looked at in the nineties, that was always the argument for guaranteed success . And always a comparison that had been an overwhelming success.
    Still nothing actually underpins the currency because as I understand it one doesn't get shares in the "multi-billion decentralised server network" should the currency revert back to zero.
     
  11. Highway

    Highway Member Exclusive Member

    Joined:
    May 2016
    Posts:
    18
    Likes Received:
    5
    The value of BTC is generally underpinned by the cost of the electricity people are willing to spend to mine it in the first place. Every time the value of BTC collapses, large sections of the mining network are switched off because at those times it's cheaper to buy it on the market than it is to mine for new blocks. When the parity cost of mining versus buying is reached the market focus changes... more mining competition means blocks are harder to mine and therefore more expensive in terms of the processor burn of electricity. When bitcoins popularity goes up, there's more competition, the algorymth reacts to this and makes it harder to solve the "puzzle" you need to mine blocks, so the electricity required increases globally to keep up with this.

    This is also one of the reasons for the locations of the mass farms... China has many of them because china still burns coal for electricity and they have so much coal that wholesale electricity is really cheap. It's also why things like hydroelectric powered mining is so popular privately, as once you've bought or built the facility the sea doesn't charge you for the waves and tides ;) Hence the buying or disused renewable power stations in places like Australia.

    So in short the Bitcoin network's entire value is based on the wanton destruction of resources that could be used for things like heating for the poor. It's becoming an outdated dinosaur now (although it has been immensely valuable in that it has created a new asset class and a new global economy)... There are much better alternatives on the horizon which I believe will oust Bitcoin in the end, because ultimately things are only worth what people will pay for them, and as was discussed earlier in the thread, people value national currencies that have no tacit underpinning real world value, it's basically a consensus of trust.

    With my best wishes ;)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. ian

    ian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Posts:
    4,026
    Likes Received:
    292
    I understand what you are saying, but by definition, gold is a pyramid scheme too; the scarcity is controlled by governments alone to maintain value levels; they could flood the market with fresh gold if they wanted, until a time when mining it is no longer cost efficient. Bitcoin on the other hand is distributed at a designed volume until there is no more and this cannot be manipulated; equally Bitcoin has first mover advantage with a distribution and technology hard to match (similar to the Internet). Where they are similar is that both have alternatives, gold has competing assets silver arguable has more value; minerals in space may eventually be mined. They all do well from being a superior asset.

    One thing no one can deny or ignore however is that fiat is being constantly printed, debt increasing, and deflation resulting in the value of our money being worth a few ticks less each year. Gold, Bitcoin etc, are all hedges against this.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2007
    Posts:
    5,152
    Likes Received:
    131
    Gold of course is finite and that's why i don't think comparisons stand up. The argument seems to be that nothing can compete with bitcoin although no suggestion as to what it's for other than as a profit making investment. But my question is say, in the event of governments bringing in laws to outlaw it as an investment what would happen to an investors money. Nothing has sadly occurred to diminish my fears from outset that this is simply a very elaborate and engenious ponzy scheme and with the last ones to be mined in the very distant future and most lucrative returns being predicted to be in 10 or 20 years I suppose we will just have to wait and see, while the price goes up and down as new people are drawn in and the savvy get rich.
     
  14. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2004
    Posts:
    11,012
    Likes Received:
    387
    I have zero interest in converting or recruiting you or anyone else.... Don't like it ... Don't buy it or use it. I'm here to share my knowledge for those that are not anti. I don't want to get into a boring debate or tell you how much money I've made
     
  15. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2007
    Posts:
    5,152
    Likes Received:
    131
    With respect, you don't know if I hold any, so a little presumptuous based on my initial question, what underpins any guarantee on the bitcoin currency. The fact that it has all the underlying qualities of a pyramid scheme is just my opinion. When you've seen it before you can't help but relate it.
     
  16. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2004
    Posts:
    11,012
    Likes Received:
    387
    So... Do you hold... As per thread title?
     
  17. Trauiner United Kingdom

    Trauiner Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2016
    Posts:
    593
    Likes Received:
    62
    This is where Bitcoin has a bit of a identity crisis. A lot of the people that push it hard, do so at present because they will massively benefit from it and for no other reason than that. That happens in a lot of things but BTC is an outlier where the benefits can be on a magnitude much larger than anything we've seen; which is a problem for BTC.

    That's where you get into 'pyramid scheme' territory.

    A lot of the things that BTC should stand for don't stand up practically in real world usage for the mass population, at present anyway.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  18. Trauiner United Kingdom

    Trauiner Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2016
    Posts:
    593
    Likes Received:
    62
    There is technically no cap on the amount of BTC that can exist. The BTC cap is only based on a community consensus and computer code.

    Although the chances of it happening are minimal, there is a possibility that the cap could change in the future.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. Trauiner United Kingdom

    Trauiner Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2016
    Posts:
    593
    Likes Received:
    62
    @Admin - Do you disagree that Bitcoin has a identity crisis or do you disagree that BTC doesn't currently stand up practically?

    Not sure why the cap reply is funny; as that's a fact. That's not an opinion. There is technically no hard cap on the amount of BTC that can exist.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2004
    Posts:
    11,012
    Likes Received:
    387
    Do you hold BTC?
     
  21. Trauiner United Kingdom

    Trauiner Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2016
    Posts:
    593
    Likes Received:
    62
    Yes.

    Used to trade it a lot but now just hold half of what I originally bought.