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Drop list consultation

Discussion in 'Nominet General Information' started by Whois-Search, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. Whois-Search United Kingdom

    Whois-Search Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  2. Domain Forum

    Acorn Domains Elite Member

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    articles.co.uk
     
  3. cav United Kingdom

    cav Active Member

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    So are they proposing to release an exact drop time to the public? How does this counter one of their concerns: i.e. Not all registered domains are actively used (I assume they mean domain investors)?? The catching software will still beat Joe Public in registering these dropping domains. Are they aiming for an auction style release? Perhaps I am misunderstanding this.
     
  4. RobM

    RobM Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    You get the feeling that point 3 is what they really want to dictate..erm..talk about? I think 1 and 2 are just to make it seem like it's a general consultation. They already know what they will do - this is lip service as with everything they *consult* about. They only ever pretend to let us have an input when they know it's *really* going to be something we don't like. Can't be good.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  5. Siusaidh United Kingdom

    Siusaidh Active Member

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    The way I see it, logic will pull in one of two directions:

    Either

    1. A model like was trialled for the .uk release, with scheduled times of release for specified domains, and probably a system like the one operated there, in terms of the money/guarantees needed to be designated to Nominet in advance

    or

    2. Names get listed in advance, and are auctioned direct to the public, who have to designate a registrar who the winning bidder will have the domain assigned to. This would, to an extent, increase opportunities for the general public, would make extra money for Nominet, but on the downside would siphon off domains each time to the wealthy. Since many caught domains end up being auctioned off already, it could be argued that a centralised auction system would simply give the wider public access at the first stage of release.

    It's late, and I may not be right, and I may not have thought through other options. I'm just trying to think what I would do if I was Nominet, and wanted to maximise profits.
     
  6. ian

    ian Well-Known Member

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    I would agree this is a done deal. Nothing to see here. Nominet rolling out a completely new system for ROR was always a technical showcase to the board (and key registrars) for future use. Their main justification appears to be load on their servers, but be realistic here, a few hundred 'tags' sending 432,000 queries hardly amounts to ddos levels of load. They claim it will make it fairer for all but it doesn't, unless you are an expert at getting the order wrong like me! I guess we can look forward to 2pm drops where creates are sent early and the clever ones find exploits, so nothing changes really.
     
  7. RobM

    RobM Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    That could be why they've introduced a fake slowdown. So that they can lift it and hail how the server loads have been decreased :p
     
  8. Ben Thomas

    Ben Thomas Active Member Full Member

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    Who knows. A system like RoR would destroy growth for Nominet, only the top players will compete and I don't think there's enough of them to drive the growth that we all do as a whole, in this "almost fair" system. I think it'd be grossly unfair to play the game like RoR. RoR was a fucking shit show.
     
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  9. RobM

    RobM Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    Nominet don't want to grow. They just want to get money into their bank accounts and not into the business where they can't touch it. Remember, indirectly board members *are* the top players.
     
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  10. Ben Thomas

    Ben Thomas Active Member Full Member

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    It's a shame, man. I really hope it doesn't go down that route.
     
  11. Siusaidh United Kingdom

    Siusaidh Active Member

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    What I would do, if I was Nominet, is I would release a list of all names due to drop for each given day.

    Then let's say we take the names due to drop on January 20th.

    Ten days before that (January 10th), I would invite starter 'bids' of, say, £25 for individual names. Any name that is bid on, I would place on a 5 day auction page, open to everyone to bid on. The winning bidder would have to designate a registrar/tag which Nominet would place on the domain at release.

    All unclaimed names would be released on January 20th - the exact mechanism to be decided.

    I just don't see what isn't in it for Nominet in running an auction scheme like this, given their hunt for increased profits. Why sell a domain name for £4.15 when you can sell probably 100s each day for between £25 and £1000s...

    It could be argued (by them) that this opens up the system to the wide general public, increasing user accessibility at the point of domain drop, and reduces 'domain catching'. You want it? You buy it. And you pay the market price.
     
  12. ian

    ian Well-Known Member

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    They could do this, but they might find themselves under scrutiny by higher powers for unnecessarily profiting from the registration of domain names. It isn't for them to determine what domain has value and what doesn't; the point of a fixed price registration fee is just that, to ensure a fair system for all, even if in reality it isn't.

    The ROR type system is looking very likely, a pita for all drop catchers in so much as we'll need new systems, but in reality not much will change, it will still be a race to who sends epp creates at the right moment. The fear for many will be the possible introduction of 'pay per quota' tiers where the more money you hold in 'credit', the more chances you have (which is the opposite of fair).

    If Nominet wanted to make it truly fair, they'd allow anyone interested to apply and then a name is chosen by lottery.
     
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  13. timter51

    timter51 Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    The important question is, how long have we got to ride the gravy train until they implement whatever new system they see fit? How long does it take them to act on consultations like this?
     
  14. Siusaidh United Kingdom

    Siusaidh Active Member

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    I understand that Ian, and I am simply arguing a scenario that Nominet may explore. I guess they would counter-argue your point by saying that any price variation is not their primary motive. Rather, they would be 'reducing pressure on the system, making all names accessible to all at the point of dropping, bypassing the secondary market and thereby reducing the motive to drop catch to zero, and not determining the value of any domain themselves, but letting the market decide.'

    The status quo in no way ensures a fair system for all, as you acknowledge. So the fixed price registration method actually doesn't work. Only people who run scripts can access the dropping names. Everyone else is locked out if/until they have the chance to pay the premium to a 'go-between'. An auction model would have the same end product, but supply would be guaranteed as/when the buyer obtained their domain (protection from cyber squatting, immediate access) and access would be available directly to everyone in the general public who is prepared to pay the market price (whatever that may be).

    From Nominet's perspective, why sell for £4-15p if you can sell for, say £500? Times multiples of thousands over the course of a year? And if a secondary market is going to do that to the domains anyway, why hand over the profit to them when you can make the profit yourself? From Nominet's perspective (unless they can make more money by a different quasi-ROR system)...

    I realise this can't be at all a popular view here for many people who benefit from drop catching, and I benefit from the present set up myself indirectly, but in terms of logic, a Registry-based auction approach has logical arguments in its favour, and could be argued for persuasively.
     
  15. Aaron Clifford

    Aaron Clifford Well-Known Member

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    I better get £30k added to my Nominet account then so I get the most creates available :eek:
     
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  16. davedevelopment

    davedevelopment Well-Known Member

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    I'll be looking forward to the reg fee price drop with all the savings made by the reduced load :)
     
  17. RobM

    RobM Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    As this will be aimed at their money maker top registries expect to be depositing £500k. Again though we're all jumping the gun. As with all their previous decisions I'm sure they'll do what's best for us and the registrants.
     
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  18. Whois-Search United Kingdom

    Whois-Search Well-Known Member

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    I wish Nominet had been more clear on what they are actually proposing in this consultation.

    I agree a ROR style drop is more likely than auction. However I’m not sure they could expect a constant credit limit every single day?

    In my opinion they will just provide the time and date each domain drops. If you look on the Nominet FTP access for .london they already do this for MMX - here are three examples:

    boomerang.london,2019-10-09T09:37:04Z
    annex.london,2019-10-09T20:14:03Z
    acorn.london,2019-11-27T16:04:18Z

    Also I note all the other EPP stuff they want to do on the bottom of that consultation:
    That will align .uk with gTLDs and they can run one code base instead of two (saving even more money).
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  19. starbird United Kingdom

    starbird Member

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    I'm newish to all this but I don't see Nominet directly auctioning off names, that could open up a can of worms for them in terms of anti competitive actions etc. I doubt they want that kind of attention. I think the current system is fair, in that everyone has the same quota, you take your chance as to what and when you catch, you win some you lose some.

    Be interesting to see how it all plays out and when they intend to implement it if they do change it. I like the random factor the current system has and I feel for small drop catchers it at least means you're in the hunt. Btw can someone explain what a "create" is :)
     
  20. Siusaidh United Kingdom

    Siusaidh Active Member

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    I'm at a bit of a loss, Starbird, to understand why it would be anti-competitive to auction off the names? I'm just interested to understand that case, not criticising your comment at all :)

    As things stand, people already have no option but to pay Nominet £4 (through a registrar) if they want to buy a name that has dropped. Why is that any more or less competitive than paying £25 or £100 or £500 or whatever a name went for at a Nominet auction?

    The option would be the same in either case: pay Nominet.

    The difference would be that competition to purchase the dropping domains would be broadened to anyone in the public, and not the more limited pool of dropcatchers. You could argue that giving direct access to a wider group of the public is more competitive, not less competitive - with the added advantages that no-one would sit on the domain names for in some cases years, and the highest bidder would get immediate access. It would hugely impact drop catchers, because all the best names would be accessible direct from Nominet, but Nominet might argue that would reduce the drop catching process to near zero.

    None of this would be a popular outcome for people who make good money from drop catching (many here on this forum) but it's one scenario. I guess someone has to be the devil's advocate. It's a model that's been obvious for years. The question is mainly: is it in the interests of the interested parties with most control or influence over Nominet, and in the interests of Nominet's brand and monetisation of domains?

    To be honest, I'm quite surprised there hasn't been a move to classify key words into price categories such as 'premium'. There's precedent for that in plenty of the new TLDs. I'd hate that of course, but you have to be cold and ruthless and look options in the face. It's pointless just ignoring the options and hoping they'll go away. Always ask: what will a company do, faced with logic and the potential of different models to increase capital.

    Anyway - it is the 'anti-competitive' argument I'm interested in, because that moves the decision-making towards legal territory or government intervention. How would administering the auctioning of domains be any less competitive than the selling off of domains Nominet already does? That's what they do. Sell domains. If they widen access, it seems like a push to say they would be anti-competitive, but I may well be missing a legal point here, which is why I'm asking.
     
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  21. RobM

    RobM Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    It would be anticompetitive because people can afford £100 per year to take part in the drops. A nominet auction would exclude a lot of people financially. I know from the amount of domains caught by people using my system that *aren't* auctioned that there is still a huge takeup of domains at reg fee - imagine if every one of those had a £100 fee from nominet.
    Also nominet are clearly as bent as a 3 pound note anyway so do you really think it's a good idea for them to be in charge of handing out domains or setting bid prices? As well as your definition of 'premium' may differ from someone else's so why should nominet be given the power to decide a domain's value?
    Also everyone is losing sight of nominet's original remit. They are already so far over that line you can barely see them but this would take them even further.
     
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