20i Reseller Hosting

Drop list consultation

Discussion in 'Nominet General Information' started by Whois-Search, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. Siusaidh United Kingdom

    Siusaidh Active Member

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    Thanks Rob, those were the sort of arguments I was looking for. I'm trying to think through the logic of the various models (see any of you at the round table gathering in December btw).

    That 'premium domain' thing does operate in quite a lot of new TLDs though doesn't it? What I mean is, if they argue they want to align .uk domains with other Registries around the world, they can call on precedent, unless it exposes them legally in this country.

    Are all auctions anti-competitive? Sothebys? Auctioning a picture? I mean, I agree it benefits the wealthy. Almost any domain I wanted would probably be beyond my reach as a relatively low-paid nurse, so yes, the present drop catch system works well for me. But are auctions legally anti-competitive, and if so, does that mean secondary domain auctions are anti-competitive too? I think it's called capitalism.
     
  2. Domain Forum

    Acorn Domains Elite Member

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  3. RobM

    RobM Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    Sotheby's don't make the things that go to auction. They also don't auction things that people *need* to have. Not saying that people need a uk domain but if they do want one they have only one place to go to ultimately. There is a big difference between an auction house and a registry auctioning off their own domains.
    Also all new tlds are rubbish and 99% will fail. Their sad attempts to slap the word 'premium' on to their domains really is like putting lipstick on a pig. They can't be used as an example.
    I think you can take devil's advocate too far. As far as I know anyway we're jumping to a lot of conclusions. Nominet wouldn't go this route anyway - there are other far easier ways to achieve the same thing whilst maintaining the guise of 'poor lossmaking domain registry'.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  4. philliph United Kingdom

    philliph Active Member

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    I fail to see how this is going to make it fairer for people who don't know how the system works. If anything this is surely going to make it easier for people who are tech savvy... removing the randomness would allow us to focus on exact times for everything you want for the day, whilst currently we have to spread DAC requests over a day and focus on domains we really want.

    If load is an issue, why not just reduce DAC quotas.
     
  5. Whois-Search United Kingdom

    Whois-Search Well-Known Member

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    The problem with expired auctions (for a registry) is more about IP rights.

    Nominet need to value every expired string the same otherwise they will get in to all kinds of litigation. Premium names in new gTLDs tend to be on generic terms etc

    So rather than thinking of Nominet being Sotheby’s.... Think of it as Nominet selling off sothebys.uk to the highest bidder ! Just isn’t going to happen without getting sued for trademark infringement.

    If Nominet really wanted to make money out of this then the more likely solution would be a waiting list service which Alex Bligh proposed many years ago:

    http://www.alex.org.uk/nominet/waitlistconsultation.pdf

    However today you won’t get that past the large registrars who want a piece of the action and to actually take the risk and auction off sothebys.uk etc
     
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  6. RobM

    RobM Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    The large registrars nowadays = nominet.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  7. Katch!

    Katch! Active Member Full Member

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    I agree with Rob, Nominet are forgetting themselves. They're starting to take liberties. Starting to feel more like a dictatorship than anything good. We have no option but to use Nominet for UK domains, and that is a scary thought now that they're wielding their powers for greed.
     
  8. 3gmedia United Kingdom

    3gmedia Active Member

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    Perhaps they will follow how the dot co registry deal with dropping names. Seems to work for them.
     
  9. starbird United Kingdom

    starbird Member

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    Siusaidh if Nominet auctioned off all dropped names instead of letting then drop, there would be no drop catching, it would effectively be a monopoly. I don't see it going that far, I hope at least. It is anti competitive because all dropped domains would only be available from source. The new TLDs reserved the "premium" names, or the obvious ones at least. It is too late for Nominet to follow that path, they are released out into the public domain already.

    I agree with RobM regarding what one persons view of "premium" is. The value is what someone is willing to pay not what someone thinks it's worth. Take a look on ukbackorder, domainlore etc some great names available, especially on .uk for what I think are great prices. More food for thought is if the UK splits up, Wales and Scotland have their own TLDs already , if merkel get's her way N.I would remain under eu control. England would then require it's own specific TLD, which I assume Nominet would create.

    Interesting times ahead, changes are coming I just hope they are not too drastic and are fair. I like the current system, not caught any mega name but there is a chance, once a new system comes into play I feel that chance will be even closer to zero if they choose a pay to play to favor the large registrars.
     
  10. Siusaidh United Kingdom

    Siusaidh Active Member

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    Thanks Starbird, and thanks for your insights too, Rob. Quite clarifying. Definitely helped me to see the potential problems with an auction approach.
     
  11. Whois-Search United Kingdom

    Whois-Search Well-Known Member

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  12. stitchbob

    stitchbob Active Member Exclusive Member

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    Nominet's role is to remain independant and impartial guardians of the UK domain space (Yeah, I know, but stick with me). For that to happen, they can't be in a postition where they are making decisions about the worth of any one domain over another - they must treat every domain equally. The new gTLD's have shown what happens when the registry is allowed to set the price of individual domains, where you have "premium" domains with £xxxx ANNUAL renewal fees.

    I suspect what will happen here is at least one and possibly both of the following:

    1. Instead of random timings, domains will be released on a schedule similar to ROR. Whether that will be hourly, daily, or something else remains to be seen. Instead of constantly polling the DAC, we'll just race to register at the specified time. A droplist will be released detailing the drop time for every domain, similar to the zone file already available.

    2. There will be an additional annual fee for access to the droplist.
     
  13. RobM

    RobM Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    The beginning of the end. What's interesting is some people seem to think it's a good thing that everyone will know the exact droptimes because they think it will give them more chance with their tag. In actual fact it'll have completely the opposite effect. As it stands you are not competing with EVERY dropchaser the moment a domain drops - only the ones chasing it at the time. If they introduce that you'll be competing with every tag so your chances will massively decrease (unless of course you multitag like so many currently do). The next logical step for that would be to give people more attempts, or faster, depending on some criteria...such as..um... maybe the more domains you have on your tag the more attempts you get - or maybe even the more cash you 'deposit' the more attempts/faster connection you get.
    One thing is certain - nominet already know *exactly* what it is they're going to push through (whilst pretending to give you an input) and it won't be to benefit anyone at all on this forum. This consultation is lip service. Since the last 'maintenance' it has become very clear that they have introduced the ability to speed up some connections that they decide on - there will be a reason for this - it can't be an accident.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019 at 2:53 PM
  14. Aaron Clifford

    Aaron Clifford Well-Known Member

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    Getting some more of them sweet PayPal donations for anyone using my RoR script going forward. :D
     
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  15. starbird United Kingdom

    starbird Member

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    I agree with RobM the current system is fair, you use up your quota and you're out. I might have to look into that zone file though, not seen that. I wonder if they will have this in place by next year when all those big registrar drops are due from them renewing domains no one requested renewed :p

    I used up my quota many a time but I've caught a couple of half decent ones as well. This change would make it very difficult for everyone really because you will be competing with literally everyone at the same time. Even an alphabetical drop staggered in 6 hour increments e.g 0-F 00.00 - 06.00 G-M 06.00 - 11.59 ETC would at least use requests and there are usually several good domains spread across the alphabet.

    No doubt we'll hear more in the coming weeks, months but I have a sneaky suspicion this will all be implemented before the big anticipated drop next year.
     
  16. armistice United Kingdom

    armistice Active Member

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    They said the consultation ends in December. Then they decide if a change in policy is justified, they said they aim to do that in 12 months from the end of the consultation (I'm not sure if that included implementation or just to decide).
     
  17. wizard

    wizard Well-Known Member

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    Whatever they do won't matter if they are going ahead with it will happen even if the members don't agree just like the .UK launch:rolleyes:
     
  18. BMW7series Netherlands

    BMW7series Member

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    The aim appears to be to remove the inefficiency of the repeated checking of domain name availability using a service which is noted by some for having current technical flaws. Currently anyone who passes the minimal requirements to be a Nominet member, can afford the setup and annual fees, can attain services of a DAC hosting system and nothing much more can participate.

    If the DAC is no longer required for drop catching, because every registrar participating knows the drop time of every domain name dropping, success will be afforded to the most efficient coders who can time their EPP Create requests perfectly.

    Why would anyone who has the ability to perfect this want to lease it to others, giving them identical results? Surely those who did perfect this would all have a much higher chance of successfully registering all or most of the domain names they wanted than ever before using just a single registrar?

    There shouldn't be any requirement to bombard the EPP with multiple Creates if timing is everything. The requirement to send many EPP Creates was only necessary during the ROR release because all domain names were released at the exact same time each day. Having all domain names drop at individual and specific times would appear to negate that.

    The proposal also affords any other registrar, such as retail ones, the opportunity to participate. Many, who previously might not have bothered because of the requirement to repeatedly check for domain name availability using the DAC, might offer this as a retail service.
     
  19. ian

    ian Well-Known Member

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    They don't participate because the limits are set and cannot be skewed in their favour; they can however by EPP count if like the ROR the deeper your pockets, the more chances you have...the opposite of their suggested "fairness".
     
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  20. BMW7series Netherlands

    BMW7series Member

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    It really might just be as simple as many of them see the inefficiencies of sending thousands of domain name availability checks over a twenty four hour time period for multiple domain names on behalf of their customers. If they knew an exact drop time they could develop their systems to send a single EPP create request for each domain name their customers had requested, along with working towards perfecting timing. That’s far more efficient.

    There’s so far been no suggestion of Nominet varying EPP Create totals for any registrar wishing to attempt to register already registered domain names. What would be the reason for them to do so if every domain name dropped at a unique, predetermined and published timestamp? This isn’t the ROR where all domain names were released at the same time.

    Those who are operating multiple registrars for drop catching purposes now, whether that be for their exclusive use using alias identities or by offering DAC hosting services to others, may find it becomes unnecessary and perhaps unprofitable to do so. The current total limit of EPP Creates that may be sent by just one registrar for already registered domain names would seemingly be ample for anyone attempting to register any domain name worth registering each day.
     
  21. RobM

    RobM Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    I hope you're not implying that people like myself who offer dropcatching systems are 'operating multiple registrars'. There is a big difference between multiple people using the same script (where many tagholders are using the same scripts they bought or lease) and somebody with multiple tags under one control which is against nominet rules. This kind of misunderstanding has already led to one incorrect veiled accusation on this forum. I don't 'operate' any registrar except my own.
    However until nominet tell us what they have decided after this charade of a consultation we can't really say how everyone will adapt. Hopefully I'll be retired, or dead, by then anyway. We do know from past experience with price hikes and uk introductions that they only care about their own, and their top registrars', bottom line. It's easy for them to funnel the money from them - impossible from us. Just out of interest what made you join and post straight in this thread? Are you related to nominet? Not an accusation just wondering if they are sending in someone to butter us up ;) Our NED seems to have gone AWOL - probably done their 30 days of work for the year.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019 at 8:50 PM