A dawning realisation...

[Edwin]

The more I go through this process, especially the face to face meetings with Nominet, the clearer it's becoming to me that one big problem with the consultation (but also one big reassurance, if you like) is that BECAUSE Nominet are being open about listening, seeking feedback, etc. they're simultaneously not open to "debate" in the way one normally understands the concept.

Usually, if somebody proposes something they then are willing to defend it, Nominet have taken the position (so far) that everything is still fluid and open to change. Great, right? Yes, it's reassuring for sure, and probably better than them fighting tooth and nail to defend the proposal as it stands.

However, the flip side of that is that when you press them about the detailed specifics of one small part of the proposal and why it has to be that way, the discussion pretty much ends there because they don't try to defend it. They just take note of your comment, and it is placed with all the other comments. I am NOT saying they ignore it - not at all - but there's no way to "score points" in this fight because it's like boxing against air - when the punch lands, there's nothing there.

So by all means make your views felt. Ideally in a public venue somewhere, the more high-profile the better (or on your own blog/site because then it's clear where the comments should be attributed) - if it's in public it won't just get lumped into Nominet's "summary" at the conclusion of the exercise, and fill in the consultation, but don't expect "feedback" or "analysis" from Nominet as a result of doing so, simply because at the moment they're purely in input mode, not output.

Sorry, I know this was long, but I thought it might help some people understand what's going on, especially if you were unable to attend the meetings.

 

[anthony]

The more I go through this process, especially the face to face meetings with Nominet, the clearer it's becoming to me that one big problem with the consultation (but also one big reassurance, if you like) is that BECAUSE Nominet are being open about listening, seeking feedback, etc. they're simultaneously not open to "debate" in the way one normally understands the concept.

Usually, if somebody proposes something they then are willing to defend it, Nominet have taken the position (so far) that everything is still fluid and open to change. Great, right? Yes, it's reassuring for sure, and probably better than them fighting tooth and nail to defend the proposal as it stands.

However, the flip side of that is that when you press them about the detailed specifics of one small part of the proposal and why it has to be that way, the discussion pretty much ends there because they don't try to defend it. They just take note of your comment, and it is placed with all the other comments. I am NOT saying they ignore it - not at all - but there's no way to "score points" in this fight because it's like boxing against air - when the punch lands, there's nothing there.

So by all means make your views felt. Ideally in a public venue somewhere, the more high-profile the better (or on your own blog/site because then it's clear where the comments should be attributed) - if it's in public it won't just get lumped into Nominet's "summary" at the conclusion of the exercise, and fill in the consultation, but don't expect "feedback" or "analysis" from Nominet as a result of doing so, simply because at the moment they're purely in input mode, not output.

Sorry, I know this was long, but I thought it might help some people understand what's going on, especially if you were unable to attend the meetings.

A great post Edwin, it pretty much sums up how certain parties can ensure they achieve their objectives. You are given every opportunity to express your opinion, then they act on all those opinions. Seems democratic, yes? Don't be fooled, it simply amounts to a protracted extraction exercise before they push through their objectives anyway, only by the time they make their move, they know all your arguments, and have formulated strategies to dilute your concerns.

It is important to know the difference between telling them what you want of them, and telling them what they should already know, especially when you already know what they want out of all this!

 

[Brassneck]

The more I go through this process, especially the face to face meetings with Nominet, the clearer it's becoming to me that one big problem with the consultation (but also one big reassurance, if you like) is that BECAUSE Nominet are being open about listening, seeking feedback, etc. they're simultaneously not open to "debate" in the way one normally understands the concept.

Usually, if somebody proposes something they then are willing to defend it, Nominet have taken the position (so far) that everything is still fluid and open to change. Great, right? Yes, it's reassuring for sure, and probably better than them fighting tooth and nail to defend the proposal as it stands.

However, the flip side of that is that when you press them about the detailed specifics of one small part of the proposal and why it has to be that way, the discussion pretty much ends there because they don't try to defend it. They just take note of your comment, and it is placed with all the other comments. I am NOT saying they ignore it - not at all - but there's no way to "score points" in this fight because it's like boxing against air - when the punch lands, there's nothing there.

So by all means make your views felt. Ideally in a public venue somewhere, the more high-profile the better (or on your own blog/site because then it's clear where the comments should be attributed) - if it's in public it won't just get lumped into Nominet's "summary" at the conclusion of the exercise, and fill in the consultation, but don't expect "feedback" or "analysis" from Nominet as a result of doing so, simply because at the moment they're purely in input mode, not output.

Sorry, I know this was long, but I thought it might help some people understand what's going on, especially if you were unable to attend the meetings.

That's exactly how consultations are supposed to work. If it was Government, it isn't a negotiation at this stage but thet are seeking views to a number of proposals (think Heathrow Airport 3rd runway for instance). Once they have all responses / evidence they will refine or abandon the policy. This might then be subject to further consultation (in the case of airports Govt still doesn't know what to do) or maybe a move to proceed with a decision which might need to go forward to planning enquiries or need to go through Parliament.

I don't know, but imagine that Nominet ought to be following the sort of practices for its consultation which Govt uses - see http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file47158.pdf.

 

[websaway]

The more I go through this process, especially the face to face meetings with Nominet, the clearer it's becoming to me that one big problem with the consultation (but also one big reassurance, if you like) is that BECAUSE Nominet are being open about listening, seeking feedback, etc. they're simultaneously not open to "debate" in the way one normally understands the concept.

Usually, if somebody proposes something they then are willing to defend it, Nominet have taken the position (so far) that everything is still fluid and open to change. Great, right? Yes, it's reassuring for sure, and probably better than them fighting tooth and nail to defend the proposal as it stands.

However, the flip side of that is that when you press them about the detailed specifics of one small part of the proposal and why it has to be that way, the discussion pretty much ends there because they don't try to defend it. They just take note of your comment, and it is placed with all the other comments. I am NOT saying they ignore it - not at all - but there's no way to "score points" in this fight because it's like boxing against air - when the punch lands, there's nothing there.

So by all means make your views felt. Ideally in a public venue somewhere, the more high-profile the better (or on your own blog/site because then it's clear where the comments should be attributed) - if it's in public it won't just get lumped into Nominet's "summary" at the conclusion of the exercise, and fill in the consultation, but don't expect "feedback" or "analysis" from Nominet as a result of doing so, simply because at the moment they're purely in input mode, not output.

Sorry, I know this was long, but I thought it might help some people understand what's going on, especially if you were unable to attend the meetings.

As you have defined, it's not a negotiation, it's a feedback or going through the motions exercise. It seems to me to add insult to injury that they get customers and stakeholders to jump through hoops and even travel to London, which is time and money, to tell them what is blatantly obvious to them already.
It seems that it is designed to antagonise.

 

[Brassneck]

It seems that it is designed to antagonise.

Only if you don't understand what a consultation is supposed to be. Looks like best practice to me to have these series of meetings to help inform their decisions.

 

[willbon]

In today's world a 'consultation' is often just a way of revealing all the opposition to an idea so that when the idea is turned into reality, the proposer is completely armed with answers to the opposition... check mate.

Do you really trust Nominet to do the 'right' thing?

 

[foz]

At any point during these round tables has Nominet given an explanation or run down as to why .uk is needed? e.g.

Independent market research has indicated a high level of demand by the public for .uk

Overtime evidence has pointed to the trend that generic TLD's have had a severe impact on .co.uk registrations and renewals.

 

[websaway]

Only if you don't understand what a consultation is supposed to be. Looks like best practice to me to have these series of meetings to help inform their decisions.

The point I make is that the consultation exercise should be designed for the convenience of all participants. People are based all around the British Isles, maybe Nominet should have organised meetings at all major cities so not expecting everybody to travel to London. This is not a local issue.

The more difficult you make it for people to enter the process the less people involve themselves and so that can be interpreted as agreeable or not bothered.

 

[DarrenTSO]

People are based all around the British Isles, maybe Nominet should have organised meetings at all major cities so not expecting everybody to travel to London. This is not a local issue.

There are meetings scheduled for all around the UK.

There will be further opportunities for stakeholders to discuss the proposals on the 14 November in Cardiff, 28 November in Glasgow, 4 December in Manchester and the 11 December in Belfast. Please register your interest in attending by Friday 9 November 2012 and we will confirm further details in due course

 

[Brassneck]

There are meetings scheduled for all around the UK.

Thanks.

Guess some would benefit from reading all the available information. :wink:

 

[websaway]

There are meetings scheduled for all around the UK.

I wasn't aware, thanks for that.

 

[foz]

Guess some would benefit from reading all the available information. :wink:

The information conveyed by Nominet is not great. The consultation document and FAQ have been chopped and changed many times.

This page has no mention of a webcast http://www.nominet.org.uk/how-parti...ssions-and-consultations/consultation-new-u-0

However on the 21st during the Registrar conference their will be one. Register your interest http://www.keysurvey.co.uk/votingmodule/s180/f/463488/d90a/

 

[websaway]

Thanks.

Guess some would benefit from reading all the available information. :wink:

I think this comment qualifies my outrage at the whole exercise, it's as if domain owners have nothing else to do but follow this consultation.
Nominet get paid for their involvement, we as domain users don't.
We only stand to lose.

 

[Rigg]

I support comments made by Brassneck, this is usual due process with a consultation exercise and the feedback (or lack of it) and lack of any constructive debate whilst frustrating is the norm.

I do not know Nominet, their background or working practices and I can see there are people here who do not look at them favourably. All I would say is make yourself heard, come at them from every angle with qualified data in as many numbers as possible.

You have to believe this is still at suggestion stage.

 

[domainking]

Question

IF you did not own any .co.uk domains would you look at the .UK in a more open mindframe.

 

[websaway]

IF you did not own any .co.uk domains would you look at the .UK in a more open mindframe.

That's a bit like asking someone that's all electric at home how much they mind a rise in gas prices.

If I didn't own any co.uk's I probably wouldn't be aware of what was going on. I for one don't go around championing causes unless they affect me directly.

And personally I think looking for people to back the anti.uk campaign is a futile exercise. Nominet need to be confronted in the courts, they have sold millions of co.uk's on the basis that it was the primary business space and now they are selling that space again, and that applies even if they allow grandfather rights.

 

[Brassneck]

That's a bit like asking someone that's all electric at home how much they mind a rise in gas prices.

If I didn't own any co.uk's I probably wouldn't be aware of what was going on. I for one don't go around championing causes unless they affect me directly.

And personally I think looking for people to back the anti.uk campaign is a futile exercise. Nominet need to be confronted in the courts, they have sold millions of co.uk's on the basis that it was the primary business space and now they are selling that space again, and that applies even if they allow grandfather rights.

So you will be going to court if they do this?

 

[websaway]

So you will be going to court if they do this?

If they do it as proposed then I suspect thousands of co.uk domain holders will look for legal redress. The banks were never actually beaten in the courts but the sheer weight of feeling made it so that they had to pay back unfair charges . In my opinion the unfair penalties that these changes, as proposed, would enforce upon co.uk owners is legally questionable.