Buying a co.uk - do you mention the .uk?

[TallBloke]

Let's say you're in discussion with an end user about buying their .co.uk.

They haven't reg'd the .uk (yet).

What would you do? Bring the .uk rights into the deal and presumably give the owner more of a reason to raise the asking price? Keep quiet and cross your fingers? Or another approach?

Early days but anyone facing this issue yet?

 

[cm1975]

I'd check to see how many other domains they had (especially any .uk!) to see how much knowledge they might have. If not many others, then I'd probably buy and cross fingers. If I didn't get the .uk rights, then go back and see what they say.

Since it's early days, then better chance of it working .... BUT ultimately it depends how much you are spending and how much you need or want the .UK.

 

[archibel]

Imagine the potential cost of not owning both.

If you try to sell on at a future date, I expect most buyers will run a mile if it doesn't come bundled with .uk

Who would want to spend time & effort developing a site with the uncertainty over which will become the dominant extension.

Unless .uk completely flops and disappears as a threat (and we probably won't know for many years)...I certainly wouldn't spend a significant amount on any .co.uk without its partner.

The situation happened to me recently; seller quoted £10k for the .co.uk and £12k with the .uk...and it annoyed me because £10k for both might be reasonable but I certainly would not pay more than £2k for the .co.uk on its own.

Problem now is who's going to risk buying an expensive domain until there is a robust sales mechanism to ensure you get both. Buyers will not want to be the guinea pig who finds they've been cheated by an unscrupulous seller/incompetent SEDO.

 

[Edwin]

You have a small - very small - window of opportunity since .uk is by no means "common knowledge" yet. But who knows how quickly word will spread. Best probably to look for deals where you'd be happy to own the .co.uk at the price you're offering, and treat the .uk as gravy...

 

[woopwoop]

...Buyers will not want to be the guinea pig who finds they've been cheated by an unscrupulous seller/incompetent SEDO.

I was thinking about this recently and it could be said that both the buyer and seller are shady if they knowingly withhold information about the .uk

If the buyer is expecting the .uk but never mentions it when negotiating for the .co.uk then if a seller sells the .co.uk, after registering the .uk for themselves... who do you blame? Both withheld their intentions....

I'm not saying I'd do it as a seller (or that I wouldn't). But I wouldn't expect, as a buyer, to receive the .uk without ever mentioning it to the seller... I might be annoyed but unless I bring up the .uk right then depending on my offer I might be trying to outsmart them... and if my offer was truly fair for both, then why not mention the expectation of receiving the .uk right with the offer for the .co.uk?

 

[archibel]

If the buyer is expecting the .uk but never mentions it when negotiating for the .co.uk then if a seller sells the .co.uk, after registering the .uk for themselves... who do you blame? Both withheld their intentions...

It's fair comment, but in many cases the buyer (particularly end users) will be completely ignorant of .uk when the deal is made in the near future...whereas most sellers will be aware.

As Edwin says, there is only a very small window of opportunity for buyers/sellers to take advantage of/abuse this situation. In a years time when awareness has spread, split domains will be worth a fraction of similar names which come as a pair.

But maybe I'm biased because I mainly buy domains for development.

 

[cm1975]

If I was the seller, I would actively mention the .uk as a means of leveraging the price up.

 

[TallBloke]

Thanks for the interesting comments.

I'm minded to think that if you're entering into a discussion about buying a co.uk then the rights to the .uk should be included in any deal. It'll probably cost you more (how much more, I don't know ...20% more??) but then do you really want the co.uk without the .uk especially if you're aiming for a future resale or creating a brand?

 

[Stephen]

Rights to .uk with the domain

I would always try and ensure I acquired the .uk with the .co.uk.

Best to agree up front, but difficulty when dealing with a non-domainer.

Domainlore are leading the way, in trying to ensure it is clear that the .uk domain (or rights to the .uk) is sold with .co.uk and vice versa I hope, when people start posting .uk for sale.

Would suggest getting a Nominet Whois lookup on .uk string from Nominet site

http://www.dotuklaunch.uk/whois/lookup?query=example

when you have agreed to the .co.uk purchase.

This has a date time stamp on as proof that when you agreed to buy,
if the .uk string has not been registered, it clearly shows that
the domain you agreed to buy had the right to the .uk domain.

If the .co.uk seller then pulls a fast one, and registers the .uk domain in their own name before transfer.
You have in my opinion a legally winnable case against the seller as to your entitled to the .uk domain and you have the proof.

 

[archibel]

I would always try and ensure I acquired the .uk with the .co.uk.

Best to agree up front, but difficulty when dealing with a non-domainer.

Domainlore are leading the way, in trying to ensure it is clear that the .uk domain (or rights to the .uk) is sold with .co.uk and vice versa I hope, when people start posting .uk for sale.

Would suggest getting a Nominet Whois lookup on .uk string from Nominet site

http://www.dotuklaunch.uk/whois/lookup?query=example

when you have agreed to the .co.uk purchase.

This has a date time stamp on as proof that when you agreed to buy,
if the .uk string has not been registered, it clearly shows that
the domain you agreed to buy had the right to the .uk domain.

If the .co.uk seller then pulls a fast one, and registers the .uk domain in their own name before transfer.
You have in my opinion a legally winnable case against the seller as to your entitled to the .uk domain and you have the proof.

Absolutely right! But this proves my point...anybody buying an expensive domain now faces a dilemma. Either wait until sedo etc put something in place to make sure buyers of .co uk also get the .uk (if this is what was agreed) or else gamble knowing they could spend months going through the courts to get the .uk & knowing sedo will be unlikely to assist.

My guess is the sale process will take longer, as sedo will need to make additional checks, such as the one you refer to before releasing payment.

Ps - I realise sedo isn't the only place to buy domains, and buying names on acorn has always involved trust on the part of the buyer. It's just now the risk of a seller pulling a fast one is higher.

 

[diablo]

You have in my opinion a legally winnable case against the seller as to your entitled to the .uk domain and you have the proof.

That would be for a court to decide - no doubt at considerable expense.

The Registrant remains the seller until the transfer is made to the new Registrant - and until that point the Registrant of the .co.uk has the right to register the .uk.

Far better to get it in writing that you are purchasing the .co.uk and with rights to the .uk.

 

[Retired_Member38]

Let's say you're in discussion with an end user about buying their .co.uk.

They haven't reg'd the .uk (yet).

What would you do? Bring the .uk rights into the deal and presumably give the owner more of a reason to raise the asking price? Keep quiet and cross your fingers? Or another approach?

Early days but anyone facing this issue yet?

You would need to be a complete idiot to do the bolded part.

If you say "I want to buy xyz.co.uk for £10,000" and the seller says okay and takes your money, you have zero complaint when he then activates xyz.uk, keeps it for himself and hands you the .co.uk. You got exactly what you asked and paid for. Yet you now have something thats absolutely worthless as far as building a brand on goes.

 

[Stephen]

when sale made v when domain transferred?

That would be for a court to decide - no doubt at considerable expense.

The Registrant remains the seller until the transfer is made to the new Registrant - and until that point the Registrant of the .co.uk has the right to register the .uk.

Far better to get it in writing that you are purchasing the .co.uk and with rights to the .uk.

Disagree, yes the seller has the ability to do it, but under contract law, it is the state of the goods, namely the .co.uk domain when the "sale happened" not when it is transferred.
So the right to the .uk depends on the state of the domain at the time the sale is made.

For the avoidance of doubt, maybe Nominet would like to confirm this very important point?

 

[mojoco]

Disagree, yes the seller has the ability to do it, but under contract law, it is the state of the goods, namely the .co.uk domain when the "sale happened" not when it is transferred.
So the right to the .uk depends on the state of the domain at the time the sale is made.

For the avoidance of doubt, maybe Nominet would like to confirm this very important point?

I would disagree. Unless you have explicitly agreed to sell both there is no obligation to do so. "Caveat Emptor" or "Let the buyer beware"

 

[Stephen]

?

I would disagree. Unless you have explicitly agreed to sell both there is no obligation to do so. "Caveat Emptor" or "Let the buyer beware"

Well hopefully Nominet will clarify the position, so we can see who is right?

 

[mojoco]

Well hopefully Nominet will clarify the position, so we can see who is right?

I don't know what Nominet has got to do with a commercial decision, they are just the registry.

 

[diablo]

For the avoidance of doubt, maybe Nominet would like to confirm this very important point?

For the avoidance of doubt, get it in writing that you are purchasing the .co.uk and with rights to the .uk, as per my previous post.

 

[archibel]

OK I've done a little test by purchasing a 'buy it now' domain on SEDO and adding the message below to the transfer agent.

If I get a reply, I will post it here.

Please take into account the new rights relating to .co.uk sales.

At the exact moment of this purchase, accidentbook.co.uk holds the registration rights to accidentbook.uk, but the right has not been exercised.

I am purchasing accidentbook.co.uk AND the right to register accidentbook.uk from Nominet at some point within the next 5 years.

Please DO NOT RELEASE PAYMENT to the seller until you have accidentbook.co.uk transferred AND have confirmed by a Nominet WHOIS lookup, the rights to accidentbook.co.uk have not been exercised by the seller between now and the date the domain is transferred to you.

Regards
Glenn

 

[diablo]

OK I've done a little test by purchasing a 'buy it now' domain on SEDO and adding the message below to the transfer agent.

If I get a reply, I will post it here.

Please take into account the new rights relating to .co.uk sales.

At the exact moment of this purchase, accidentbook.co.uk holds the registration rights to accidentbook.uk, but the right has not been exercised.

I am purchasing accidentbook.co.uk AND the right to register accidentbook.uk from Nominet at some point within the next 5 years.

Please DO NOT RELEASE PAYMENT to the seller until you have accidentbook.co.uk transferred AND have confirmed by a Nominet WHOIS lookup, the rights to accidentbook.co.uk have not been exercised by the seller between now and the date the domain is transferred to you.

Regards
Glenn

I don't think that's very satisfactory. By clicking Buy It Now, you are agreeing to the terms and conditions of the sale. You should have confirmed the rights to the .uk prior to pressing that button.

 

[archibel]

I don't think that's very satisfactory. By clicking Buy It Now, you are agreeing to the terms and conditions of the sale. You should have confirmed the rights to the .uk prior to pressing that button.

Maybe and I certainly wouldn't have done this with an expensive domain/one I wanted to build a brand on...I'm just interested to see how sedo transact/respond.

However, the nominet Whois page does clearly state the right to the .uk currently belongs to the .co.uk. If I buy a house with a right of way over a neighbours property, I would expect that right to be transferred even though the sale agreement doesn't specifically state it is included.