cryptocurrency

[websaway]

It exists in the market and will be permanently passed round between buyers and sellers or, in the case of a crash, will be finally lost in the hands of the final holder.
If you buy a bitcoin for £1 and sell it for £30k - person B now owns the bitcoin and has invested £29,999 into the market (although £30k of his own money). He then sells it for £50k - person C now owns the bitcoin and has invested £49,999 into the market (person B got his £30k back so there is now £49,999 inserted into the market on that one bitcoin). If person D sells it for a loss at £30k there is now £29,999 in the market because the other £20,000 loss has been borne by person C). If the market collapses person D loses £30k which is the amount in the market plus the original £1. Buying/selling in a market is simply shuffling loss until the music stops. If the music never stops the potential losses are constantly in the market and provide the opportunity for trade.

So what you are saying is the guy that sold bitcoin has now got my 20k Am I reading that correctly and the guy that sold it created the drop in the purchase and sale price of the coin.

 

[ukbackorder]

'So what you are saying is the guy that sold bitcoin has now got my 20k'

'It exists in the market and will be permanently passed round between buyers and sellers or, in the case of a crash, will be finally lost in the hands of the final holder.'

However in your original post you talked about buying at 45k but it being *worth* 25k. In which case nothing has happened because you haven't sold. Just as you are not a millionaire if you ask a million pounds for your domain.

 

[dee]

So what you are saying is the guy that sold bitcoin has now got my 20k Am I reading that correctly and the guy that sold it created the drop in the purchase and sale price of the coin.

20k would not be enough to tank the btc price.... although it would contribute to the price direction in some small way.

That person would only have the 20k in hand if they converted to fiat currency at the time and moved to a bank account. If they held the bitcoin, then they are subject to the same unknown until they actually transfer at a given price point.

 

[websaway]

Its a volatile market. That in itself attracts a certain type of speculative trader. Oil, gold, silver, stocks... all can be massively volatile based on the politics of foreign countries, natural disasters, global pandemics, anything. Its not really different. Its just a different set of conditions that can trigger.

Well you wouldn't buy oil except as a commodity trade, gold and silver are tangible and stocks are highly regulated so can't really compare any of them. Let's not forget crypto is being marketed as something you can spend not just as an investment. Not sure I want my spending to reduce by 40% while I'm not paying attention.

 

[lazarus]

Same if you bought an ounce of gold for £2k then the price went down and you sold it for £1k

It's the guy left holding the bags after everyone has sold at a higher price.

Gold, Bitcoin, A house, A car, Loaf of bread. Its all the same.....

1 Bitcoin = 1 Bitcoin
1 Oz Gold = 1 Oz Gold

It also work the other way around with fiat and inflation.

For example.
1 loaf of bread = £1 then inflation happens and now 1 loaf of bread = £2

Where is your missing half a loaf of bread gone!!!

 

[websaway]

When a lot of people sell (or a few big fish sell a lot) the price moves down. The prices are controlled by a handful of people that have enough holding to put it wherever they want. Whereas large markets such as the ones Dee mentioned cannot be heavily affected by one or two single players the crypotocurrency market is easily moved. What we see now is often collusion between them to appear outward as though the market is rocketing or plummeting and they can catch the retail traders leaping in or out to try and catch the trend. There is a lot of money that can be made on these moves - but if you *react* to the price you will lose ultimately as it's artificial.

Do the handful of people then buy cheaper with the whole amount of the sale or do they take a profit and reenter with their initial investment in which case they would dilute their influence over the market.

 

[ukbackorder]

Person A and Person B (and maybe even a few others) who own a market-moving amount come to an arrangement.
Person A will sell lots to Person B. The market starts falling as volatility increases and shows somebody (or some people) selling lots. Normal investors get jittery and start selling (some at losses but mostly people protecting their investments or realising a profit). This pushes the price down. When the price gets low enough normal people buying into the media hype and FOMO invest new money into purchasing. This starts to show the sell-off slowing down/stopping and then Person B buys enough of all the retail positions to start the buying cascade in the market. So now Person A has forced the market to a low point where Person B can scoop up bargains from the 'normal' people as well as enticing new people into the market that they can take from in the next cycle. Once this whale buying pushes the market price up to a certain point (say where it was when the whole thing started), Person B will then 'sell' them all to Person A. Remember Person A is only using the same money that Person B gave him when it all began so it has not cost either of them anything but they have now increased the amount they own massively... for free.... rinse/repeat.
This can't happen in other markets, for example forex market. Because with so many trillions traded daily amongst millions of traders even one or two banks dropping billions of dollars into the market make no dent in it.
In crypto it is common for only 2% of the traders to control 95% of the currency so those 2% can pretty much take all the money/positions from normal traders. That's why there is tons of money to be made trading daily, only when there's volatility, (far more than HODLing and at less risk) but not if you do what the media/whales/losing investors are telling you to.

 

[dee]

Well you wouldn't buy oil except as a commodity trade, gold and silver are tangible and stocks are highly regulated so can't really compare any of them. Let's not forget crypto is being marketed as something you can spend not just as an investment. Not sure I want my spending to reduce by 40% while I'm not paying attention.

That may be the case, but I suspect 99% of all crypto trade is speculative at the moment. I'm not buying it to use.... cash or debit card is miles easier at the moment. I think eventually governments will roll their own as they will want accountability and a cut of the action. Then it will become useful for spending easily.

Crypto is wild west at mo, but there are a few with real potential uses. Like it or not, BTC and ETH especially will see much further rises in future I think.

 

[signature]

Well you wouldn't buy oil except as a commodity trade, gold and silver are tangible and stocks are highly regulated so can't really compare any of them. Let's not forget crypto is being marketed as something you can spend not just as an investment. Not sure I want my spending to reduce by 40% while I'm not paying attention.

Bitcoin is a store of value as well as a medium of exchange. Similar to the FIAT currency. The main difference is FIAT currency is inflationary while Bitcoin is deflationary.

Our GBP is infinite, we print as much as we want and it's the worst store of value.

zone 1-6 travelcard cost about £2.50 in 1991, £2.50 today is what you will pay for one trip within zone 1. 1-6 Travel card cost about £19 today.

Compare that to Bitcoin with value less that £1 in 2010 and today its about £25k.

With current fundamentals, value of GBP will continue to fall against Bitcoin and its GBP value falling from £45k to £25k is irrelevant.

If you bought Bitcoin in September 2020 at £9k and the value is £25k today. The difference is in the time you bought it and the demand of Bitcoin at the time.

 

[signature]

At the moment you can see from the stock markets this week investor money is flowing back out of crypto and back into true stores of value like your Gold and Silver etc. Bitcoin will be 20k then 10k within 12 months which will be a great buying opportunity, I'll definitely pick some up then.

Stocks, Indexes goes up when we are in Risk on market, USD falls as a result, Bitcoin, Gold and most Risk off asset tend to drop in value.

Bitcoin hit $65k this is a level where profit takers will step in and short selling will happen. The level we are today is not for bears at all, this is bulls area and only a very high risk trader will try to sell Bitcoin at this level.
Not that I am saying Bitcoin cant go any further down, it can but not from where it is at the moment. If it does, it will make good readings for bulls as it means, it will be a longer bull trend.

Bears would be waiting for it to go up to $40k or better still $48k, get a rejection and it will could then reach $18k or $10k.

My question for you is this, you just said that Bitcoin has no use, why would you want to spend $10k on something you already said have no value?

 

[ian]

The whole question is quite odd. Isn't it just a case of this is how markets work, and what changed that your 45k purchase is no longer 1 btc because the fiat value dropped.

 

[JMI]

Same if you bought an ounce of gold for £2k then the price went down and you sold it for £1k

It's the guy left holding the bags after everyone has sold at a higher price.

Gold, Bitcoin, A house, A car, Loaf of bread. Its all the same.....

1 Bitcoin = 1 Bitcoin
1 Oz Gold = 1 Oz Gold

It also work the other way around with fiat and inflation.

For example.
1 loaf of bread = £1 then inflation happens and now 1 loaf of bread = £2

Where is your missing half a loaf of bread gone!!!

I'm sad to say this is completely incorrect comparison.

When Bitcoin goes to zero (or any crypto) you have nothing (..you had nothing to start with). When Gold, property, fine art, oil, bread, a Ferrari your Rolex go to zero you still have the asset... all these things have a real world use.

 

[websaway]

I think it must be five years ago I was of the opinion that the people that started this pyramid scheme will continue to make money by moving the markets when it gets high and people are enticed in, and then buying low so the cycle starts again, it's apparent to me that that is what happens , I was wondering as a result of that if there is any record of transactions to identify where the 20k is. Most pyramid schemes collapse when it runs out of new input, a global market where maybe another billion people will eventually be pulled in can reap enormous rewards for the few at the expense of the many. But the 20k is either in someones pocket to purchase heaven knows what, (we will never know,) or has purchased an increased holding in the scheme. So when I read that it will rise to half a million dollars that for me does not make it morally right. It seems to make it morally wrong especially if I don't know where the loses go.

 

[Siusaidh]

Isn't it simply a form of gambling? People speculate in the hope of 'winning' more spending power/money.

I bet on a 3-1 horse and it loses. I haven't a clue where that money ends up after the bookie has spent it. It's not my business to know. It's his choice.

With bitcoin (at present) it still has residual value, so you've only lost a proportion (which you may regain if the market value perks up again).

But the loss you have made in your speculation to date has gone the same way as the money someone loses in a horse race. It's gone to the person you initially handed the money to.

Basically, we each have to take responsibility for our own gambling decisions. You win some, you lose some.

No-one's ripped you off. You've played the game.

At least with bitcoin, there remains a chance you may yet recoup your loss in terms of buying power. Or you may not.

Faites vos jeux.

 

[CreativeMix]

I think it must be five years ago I was of the opinion that the people that started this pyramid scheme will continue to make money by moving the markets when it gets high and people are enticed in, and then buying low so the cycle starts again, it's apparent to me that that is what happens , I was wondering as a result of that if there is any record of transactions to identify where the 20k is. Most pyramid schemes collapse when it runs out of new input, a global market where maybe another billion people will eventually be pulled in can reap enormous rewards for the few at the expense of the many. But the 20k is either in someones pocket to purchase heaven knows what, (we will never know,) or has purchased an increased holding in the scheme. So when I read that it will rise to half a million dollars that for me does not make it morally right. It seems to make it morally wrong especially if I don't know where the loses go.

You're still not addressing the fact that you could have bought at £25k and sold at £45k. It's a market so for every loser there's a winner but you seem to be looking for a conspiracy?

 

[LCHappy]

You're still not addressing the fact that you could have bought at £25k and sold at £45k. It's a market so for every loser there's a winner but you seem to be looking for a conspiracy?

On one hand I do think you are right. But if that article from a few months back about Tethers is accurate, then it's sort of a rigged market. They may not be a winner for every losers, until it goes pop. If the value of Bitcoin is decided purely by buying and selling, market going up and down according to demand, then I don't personally have an issue with it. But if it is going up and down by a few people deciding how much Tethers are worth, then I do think it's a bit of a issue. You could see a situation where a Bitcoin is worth £500k on paper, but few can cash out in cold hard cash. I think there is a good chance that that is where it is going.

My guess is as good as anyone elses, if I knew for sure I'd either be buying in, or shorting it. Sort of the fun of it I guess.

 

[CreativeMix]

Pumping and dumping happens in every market, it's inevitable but crypto is unregulated so perhaps more susceptible to unscrupulous practices?

 

[3gmedia]

I do buy lots of of coins and have done for a while.

Latest was 754 xrp @ .57 and now at .66 but that could go down or up any time.

I'm a hodler though.

 

[ian]

I'm just amazed by how many bash the crypto market, yet invest in it nether the less (blindly or otherwise). I assume the only reason they do this is to try and turn a healthy profit. If they can't handle the reverse, this isn't the speculative asset they are looking for.

 

[lazarus]

When Bitcoin goes to zero (or any crypto) you have nothing (..you had nothing to start with). When Gold, property, fine art, oil, bread, a Ferrari your Rolex go to zero you still have the asset... all these things have a real world use.

No, Its the same... You still have one Bitcoin. A bit like if your £1 went to nothing. You still have £1

They all have one thing in common.

They are only worth as much as the next guy is prepared to pay for it. Physical or Digital... Makes little difference. Yeah... you have something tangible if its a car etc but we are talking about specifically about store of wealth items.