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Expiry clause 5.3.6 update

Discussion in 'Nominet Tag Holders' started by Whois-Search, Nov 21, 2013.

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  1. Whois-Search

    Whois-Search Retired Member

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    While I welcome the addition of this line in bold to the expiry clause 5.3.6:

    See draft registrar agreement redline: http://www.nominet.org.uk/sites/default/files/RevisedRegistrarAgreement-November2013redline.PDF

    Which puts another herdle in the way of the top 20 automatically auctioning off expired domains....

    These statements by Nominet under "Treatment of expired domain names under the Registrar Agreement" on Page 20 of the explanatory notes I do not agree with:

    http://www.nominet.org.uk/sites/default/files/ExplanatoryNotesandSummaryofFeedback.pdf


    True however which registrars have the most expired domains at anyone time? Errr the Top 10? Who will make the most money out of this clause?

    While it is true a registrant can transfer "domains names to whoever they wish" - the rest of this sentence is misleading. At the moment a registrar can not unilaterally transfer a UK domain name i.e. change the admin email address and click I agree on registrant transfer. Never mind paying the £10 + VAT transfer fee on behalf of the registrant - therefore to use this analogy is nonsense!
    See: http://expiry.org.uk/current-process/


    It will also be an attractive proposition to Sedo MLS and Afternic DLS (now owned by Godaddy) to sign up all the top UK registrars for expired domains.

    This is a true statement however again the Top 20 registrars account for most of the registry database and most of them will be accredited.


    While it is true the issue group did recommend the five points Nominet give in the explanatory notes.

    It is also true that statements like the following exist in the Issue Group documents:
    See: http://expiry.org.uk/issue-group/

    These may have not been final recommendations from the group however concerns over registrars auctioning expired domains did exist and were documented.
     
  2. Domain Forum

    Acorn Domains Elite Member

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    articles.co.uk
     
  3. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    Unintended consequences

    The clause about transferring the domain is clearly put in to the benefit of large registrars - BUT why have it in at all, what is the benefit to the UK namespace?

    The problem for something that should not be there in the first place, is to build safeguards, like the 30 days linked with expiry date not registration, is the side-effects.
    Although pleased Nominet has listened to the concerns of those that don't want the clause and I believe Nominet have made a genuine effort to protect the registrant, the problem is the registrants will 100% get around it, within the rules.

    Possible Example: Registrar sends an email notice out to say your domain expired 30 days ago to renew you domain from now, we need it in writing and £50 etc. or please tick the box on this link and please see terms and conditions explaining what will happen to your domain.

    Best not to have it in the first place.

    There will also be problems for Nominet after a registrar sells the domain and the client finds out.

    Nominet please remove the transfer fee to all and please do it now, it really looks like Nominet are only going to remove the charge to allow large registrars the benefit of getting hold of client domains for no cost.
     
  4. bensd United Kingdom

    bensd Well-Known Member

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    Does this mean that large registrars could simply transfer un-renewed domains and sell them off at auction?
     
  5. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    Yes. Though theoretically they have to ask permission of the old registrants to do so first...

    I say theoretically, because that permission most likely could be sought in an obscure or roundabout way, say by burying something in a thick wad of legalese in the T&C that they know nobody will read (but which will mean they're not breaking the new rules).

    Incidentally, GTLD registrars (.com, .net etc.) have been doing so for years (a decade or more?) and most of the large registrars have warehoused tens or hundreds of thousands of desirable pre-owned domains that never made it to the drops.
     
  6. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    Basically YES

    Basically YES if they follow the rules on obtaining registrant permission.

    They can even put it on sale without renewing it and only renew if sell it or maybe get views on the listing page.

    Or use the domain to register the .uk version and allow the .co.uk to drop.

    With the removal of the transfer fee the Nominet wants to introduce as part of these changes, it looks like a real "win" for the large registrars.
     
  7. foz

    foz Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    And its no accident with them controlling the voting block. If the Execs want to curry favour and stay in office they will clap when told to.
     
  8. Lucien Taylor

    Lucien Taylor Active Member

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    I think the new clause in revised 5.3.6 tries to address this:

    That suggests to me - whatever you may have buried in your T&Cs - you have to engage in a new permission-obtaining transaction with the Registrant during the expiry window. However, in practice - how would we as competitors prove that somebody like 123reg 'didn't'?
     
  9. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    Ah, but would sending an email with a lot of blah blah blah including something like the following buried in the middle be considered consent? "Your domain name is expiring in 30 days. By continuing to maintain your domain with XYZ registrar, you consent to the XYZ registrar domain expiry policy at LINK"

    Then you bury the real stinger deep in the linked-to policy document.

    Lawyers specialise in finding all sorts of wriggle room like this...
     
  10. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    creative way

    But as I tried to say in post 2 above- it will not be a straight forward ;
    "please let you us have you expired/expiring domain as we want to sell it and take all the money for ourselves"
    it will be done in a creative way, within the rules!

     
  11. Lucien Taylor

    Lucien Taylor Active Member

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    Yes. But the rhetoric of p.21 of the Explanation notes [http://www.nominet.org.uk/sites/default/files/ExplanatoryNotesandSummaryofFeedback.pdf is even stronger than the contract :

    I am going to push for Nominet to produce some draft clauses (aka ICANN's draft Registrar clauses), making it clear what exactly needs to be relayed to the Registrant and that it cannot be buried in some chain of secondary documents.

    Even so, how would we prove it if the likes of 123reg et al. were to fail to comply? It comes back to compliance. This is going to be a bigger issue, it's a mess at ICANN and after years of failure they are still trying to put it right, with lots of stakeholders shouting foul play.
     
  12. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    I think there are some possible solutions.

    1. Clauses 5.3.1 and 5.3.2 within the final draft of the revised .uk registrar agreement make reference to a Nominet "domain transfer tool". Unfortunately the specifics of what this tool will consist of are not mentioned in any documents that I have currently read. As many of us are aware Nominet currently allow registrars to customise the emails that Nominet themselves send out to registrants that remind registrants to renew their domain names. It might be possible for Nominet to enforce a requirement for any domain name that a registrar wished to opt to takeover to be flagged in the registry by the registrar. Such a flag could, within the appropriate time periods, would trigger the sending of an email, customisable by the registrar but overseen by Nominet, to be sent to the registrant explaining the request for takeover and including a link for the registrant to click to signal acceptable or denial of the request. Nominet would know whether the registrant had accepted or denied a registrar request to takeover a domain name based on the link being clicked.

    2. Any domain names that had been successfully put into "takeover status" would be listed by Nominet, either on a web page for everyone to see, or in a system that other registrars could query (perhaps based on date) to return the results. Perhaps link it to the DAC? That way every other registrar (or perhaps anyone at all) would know what domain names were possibly poised for being taken over.

    3. It should remain a requirement for the WHOIS data of a domain registrant of domain names put into "takeover status" to remain visible. After all the rights to the domain name cannot be transferred until the point when the domain name would ordinarily be cancelled. This would allow anyone being able to contact the original registrant up until the point when the domain name would ordinarily be cancelled.

    4. Nominet need to specify the number of days beyond expiry where a domain name would officially ordinarily be cancelled. I'm assuming it is 92 days but have they clarified this anywhere?

    Other things I'm unsure of:

    5. Will domain names still be suspended after 30 days? If so will registrars be able to renew those domain names as part of any preparation to take over the domain name? If they are able to, would the registrant still be able to enact a tag change prior to 92 days after expiration, via Nominet Registrant Services, and then refuse to pay for the renewal cost that a registrar might have paid out for on the basis that the registrar didn't ask the registrant if they wanted their domain name renewing?

    Something for drop catchers:

    6. How about Nominet make full daily drop lists available to all registrars given they want to give accredited registrars the benefit of being able to takeover expired domain names? I realise that these lists might be substantially reduced if the top twenty registrars begin to take over domain names, but it would still be useful.
     
  13. Skinner

    Skinner Well-Known Member

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    Would it not be possible to have the registrar email a link to the registrant, who has to login to their nom account and accept that the name can be transferred to the registrar ?

    Removes automation but adds security and reduces fowl play.

    This should only be possible AFTER suspension as well.

    I think we should all be pushing to stop registrars tasting domains, which can be written into this, that registrars are not allowed to modify name servers.
     
  14. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure it would be. However how would that be of much improvement? The email from nominet I have proposed would go to the email account held on file by Nominet. It would contain either a direct link to agree to allowing the registrar to transfer the domain name or a link to allow them to login to Nominet Registrants Online where they could then agree (or deny) to this. If we had the latter, the controller of the email account might still be able to retrieve the password of the nominet account via a "forgot password" link.

    Yes it might do.

    I assume it would be since steps to transfer cannot occur for 30 days after expiry. Domain names go suspended after 30 days so there wouldn't be the option for a registrar to "taste" unless the registrar renewed the domain name *I assume*.


    I too would like more clarification about the Nominet transfer tool and what exactly registrars will be permitted to do.


    (from iPhone)
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  15. Skinner

    Skinner Well-Known Member

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    I didn't think about them just changing the email and getting the password.

    Even if you made it so the email can't be changed once domain moved into suspended, the unscrupulous will just change it earlier.

    Surely nominet can gather enough info if the process MUST be done through their site, that should complaints come to light, if a registrar has been underhanded it can simply be reversed.

    Maybe a card imprint should be taken ? yeah makes it more hassle, but means people are absolutely sure they want it released.
     
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