Question for Nominet

[Jac]

This bit from 1&1. They say 'annoying'. Annoying to whom? Annoying to 1&1 because it stops them from making money from someone elses domain registration. This wording isn't necessarily in the best interests of the registrant.

Argo,

The problem is that this is actually a business model issue, not a Nominet one. If one or other ISP or hosting company decides this as their policy, it is not really Nominet's place, nor do I think they'd have the right, to dictate to an individual tag holder how they should formalise their own policy or service level agreement. That said, I can entirely see where you guys are coming from and I personally don't like this either because it theoretically places the registrant in breach of Nominet WHOIS opt-out rules when it may not be the wish of the registrant to have their domain name pointing at a PPC page in the first place.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[sneezycheese]

The problem is that this is actually a business model issue, not a Nominet one. If one or other ISP or hosting company decides this as their policy, it is not really Nominet's place, nor do I think they'd have the right, to dictate to an individual tag holder how they should formalise their own policy or service level agreement.

...Agreed.

That said, I can entirely see where you guys are coming from and I personally don't like this either because it theoretically places the registrant in breach of Nominet WHOIS opt-out rules when it may not be the wish of the registrant to have their domain name pointing at a PPC page in the first place.

...One thing:

It is clear from what we have found Nominet will have to adapt and now change it's rather blunt WHOIS opt-out rules so to not be in breach of the DPA.

To this end... How did you get on when you raised this issue at the PAB meeting yesterday???

 

[Jac]

...Agreed.

...One thing:

It is clear from what we have found Nominet will have to adapt and now change it's rather blunt WHOIS opt-out rules so to not be in breach of the DPA.

To this end... How did you get on when you raised this issue at the PAB meeting yesterday???

I would agree that if a registrant is a consumer (non-trading) then the issue of one or other hosting company deciding to point their domain name at a PPC page does complicate the issue. Nominet was already aware of this phenomenon and is already looking at it. However, as I said, this is not actually a Nominet issue, it is a hosting company (or ISP) issue. If a registrant signs up to the Terms of Service of a particular company it seems to me they are binding themselves to those particular terms. So I'm a bit confused on your thinking in this instance and for the sake of clarity I mean the following. If they do sign up to a particular set of terms and conditions that allow their hosting company to point their domain name in a commercial for-profit manner, how is it then Nominet that is breaching the DPA? (IE: the domain is being used in the course of 'trade'.)

The opt-out seems fairly clear; if your domain is used commercially (i.e. to make money) you have no right of opt-out.

Or am I missing your point?

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[olebean]

The opt-out seems fairly clear; if your domain is used commercially (i.e. to make money) you have no right of opt-out.

Regards
James Conaghan

Jac

Under the circumstances can any domain registrant opt-out?

If not then we go back to the discussion of regulations that require the ability to opt-out and stay opted out.

OB

 

[sneezycheese]

how is it then Nominet that is breaching the DPA? (IE: the domain is being used in the course of 'trade'.)

The opt-out seems fairly clear; if your domain is used commercially (i.e. to make money) you have no right of opt-out.

Or am I missing your point?

...Er Jac, you're missing the point by miles! - As a 'consumer' they would not be using the domain in the course of his/her trade or business - It would be the ISP - So the 'consumer' MUST still be protected by the DPA as they do not financially gain out of the transactions.

I must say I'm disapointed in you Jac - Before the PAB meeting you told me this:

Where did you see this info Simon? I'd like to ask the Executive about it at tomorrow's PAB meeting, because it casts a whole new aspect on opting out and in (for consumers). And I mean to say, it is now apparently outside their control.

...And it seems after the meeting you have changed your tune (not the first time I may add).

ISP's are doing no wrong in what they are doing - whereas Nominet by carrying out their draconian opt out policy are in effect screwing the 'consumer'.

As I've said in the past - I don't think Nominet likes having 'consumers' as registrants.

As you've said in the past - get a grip mate! :-D

 

[sneezycheese]

Come on Jac - We're still waiting for an answer:

How did you get on when you raised this issue at the PAB meeting yesterday???

Also - What did 'da management' have to say on the matter??? - It's not their problem, bla, bla, etc, bla, bla - perhaps.

 

[Whois-SearchWhois-Search is verified member.]

I think you will have to wait a few weeks Sneezy for the PAB september report to be approved by all its members as Jac would be talking on behalf of the PAB.

Anyway heres an interesting one on the same subject:

I have a Enom PDQ at Whois-Register.com

Which sells .uk domain names which are registered on Enom's TAG.

When a domain is left on Enom's nameservers or the domain name gets detagged it gets parked at Enom's parking pages.

Sites like Namecheap.com also use the Enom API.

So should I redirect the customers name off the parking pages ? or is Enom responsible as the nominet member and tag holder.

P.S. you can set default nameservers anyway so I could have my own parking pages even though its still on Enom's TAG and the registrant is the customer!

 

[Jac]

...Er Jac, you're missing the point by miles! - As a 'consumer' they would not be using the domain in the course of his/her trade or business - It would be the ISP - So the 'consumer' MUST still be protected by the DPA as they do not financially gain out of the transactions.

Yes, and the ISP is therefore holding them to ransom, so get a new frigging ISP. Geez!

I must say I'm disapointed in you Jac - Before the PAB meeting you told me this:

Where did you see this info Simon? I'd like to ask the Executive about it at tomorrow's PAB meeting, because it casts a whole new aspect on opting out and in (for consumers). And I mean to say, it is now apparently outside their control.

Considering that was a private message sneezy (and please note the word private as in not public domain) I take great offence to you having published it. I find it incredibly difficult to try to help you at all when you do such daft and inflammatory things... but then again, why change now....

...And it seems after the meeting you have changed your tune (not the first time I may add).

That is total yak manure.

ISP's are doing no wrong in what they are doing - whereas Nominet by carrying out their draconian opt out policy are in effect screwing the 'consumer'.

It is not Nominet's policy on opt-out that is the issue here, it is the conflict between customer (who may indeed be a consumer) and the ISP or hosting company. Nominet has no control over its Tag Holder's individual business models. If a registant is in fact a consumer and can prove it, they should speak direct to Nominet and ask Nominet for advice, but Nominet cannot instruct a Tag Holder on his or her own usage policy. That is a matter between the registrant whether consumer or business and the hosting company.

And if I try to help you privately in the future, please have the good grace to keep a private conversation private!

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Jac]

So should I redirect the customers name off the parking pages ? or is Enom responsible as the nominet member and tag holder.

In my personal opinion, it is the registrant's domain name and they should be able to control what they want doing with it. It is not the ISP's or Hosting Company's domain name so if the registrant instructs said parties not to point it at a PPC site I would think, at least morally, the said parties are obliged to follow the registrant's instructions. I cannot argue legally (IANAL) but I would expect using someone else's domain name without authority and especially in a way that deprives them of their consumer rights (for instance) could be open to legal challenge. Perhaps Beasty may care to comment on that aspect?

It is after all the registrant who owns the domain name in as much as one can own any domain name.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[sneezycheese]

Yes, and the ISP is therefore holding them to ransom, so get a new frigging ISP. Geez!

...The ISP is doing nothing of the sort (maybe I should pass your comments onto 1&1 – I’m sure their legal team would have a field day with you :mrgreen: ) - the option to opt out is there and really for most people a tailor made custom error page that admittedly contains sedo ads, isn't an issue for jo blogs consumer types. The ONLY ISSUE is how Nominet treats its 'consumer' customers and it is clear from what you're saying now (change of heart all of a sudden ) that Nominet does not want to recognise that 'consumers' buy their product - that they exist - or in fact that they have RIGHTS!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Arrogant, Thoughtless, Self-Righteous and Buggers!!!

Considering that was a private message sneezy (and please note the word private as in not public domain) I take great offence to you having published it. I find it incredibly difficult to try to help you at all when you do such daft and inflammatory things... but then again, why change now....

...Woo there boyo, why take offence? - got something to hide? - as a data controller I am duty bound to point out issues that can cause a breach of the DPA - just as I'm duty bound to report this issue to the I.C. Office!

Why do you want to keep such things secret? - Is it that people might find out what sort of chap you really are - Mr. Flipity flop!

It is not Nominet's policy on opt-out that is the issue here, it is the conflict between customer (who may indeed be a consumer) and the ISP or hosting company. Nominet has no control over its Tag Holder's individual business models. If a registant is in fact a consumer and can prove it, they should speak direct to Nominet and ask Nominet for advice, but Nominet cannot instruct a Tag Holder on his or her own usage policy. That is a matter between the registrant whether consumer or business and the hosting company.

...Of course, I was forgetting - THE SUN SHINES OUT OF NOMINETS ARSE - Nominet can do no wrong - We are not worthy - Nominet is ALWAYS right - god this is getting tiring!!!

You said it yourself - NOMINET's POLICY ON OPT-OUT IS AN ISSUE!!! - But you've changed your tune - WHY's THAT JAC???

And if I try to help you privately in the future, please have the good grace to keep a private conversation private!

...Sorry - if I remember rightly I was helping you (i.e. giving you the damn information you asked for) - I asked in a PM for some feedback and I was ignored - in any case... in some circumstances public interest rules apply! - Just as it does in the Official Secrets Act :mrgreen: