20i Domains

BHYADOM success rate

Discussion in 'Drop catching Domain Names' started by Whois-Search, May 7, 2020.

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  1. cyberpunk United Kingdom

    cyberpunk Active Member

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    Ah I'm a PS4 man myself. I use the PC for investigating and implementing cache flaw detection algorithms ;)
     
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  2. Domain Forum

    Acorn Domains Elite Member

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    articles.co.uk
     
  3. WalkinDude United Kingdom

    WalkinDude Well-Known Member

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    Why has this system of releasing expired domain names only become shambolic, disgraceful etc recently?

    So if all the top dozen catchers perceive themselves as getting a fair crack it's no longer shambolic despite average Joe wanting in standing no chance?

    Whereas if the elite catchers discover that one amongst them is super elite and catches more than their fair share, in the eyes of their most direct rivals, then it is shambolic?

    Is this the argument?

    And let's say changes are made. To change something so drastically as is being proposed is to admit the previous thing was wrong/flawed/not fit for purpose. Does that mean catchers who've missed out can form a class action for the last 2 decades of domain drops that have been totally gamed by an elite few specialist programmers exploiting a known flawed system?


    Just asking for a friend.
     
  4. Whois-Search

    Whois-Search Retired Member

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    If you actually read my posts above I asked how it is technically possible that one tag can be so successful. I didn’t claim anything else or accuse them of cheating.

    Also I seem to have answered my own question here ....

    When you go registering 1000+ names like that on the drop....That gives you extra lookups on the time delay DAC:
    • The daily limit is set at 5x the number of domain names on tag PLUS 200x the highest monthly new registrations figure from the previous 12 months and is capped at 3 million daily queries. This figure is recalculated at midnight on the first day of the month.
    https://registrars.nominet.uk/uk-na...-domain-management/acceptable-use-policy/#dac

    You can then use that quota to scan more dropping names at once (rather than firing one at a time on real time DAC).

    However the time delayed DAC is by its very nature delayed by 100ms. If you share your real time DAC quote throughout the day it’s 200ms.

    So while I agree with Susan the system not perfect....

    Nominet make these rules up not us.
     
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    Last edited: May 8, 2020
  5. Murray

    Murray Well-Known Member

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    Fair doesn't mean everyone has the same chance, fair is having an equal opportunity to participate within the given rule set and then seeing who the best is

    It's deemed unfair when people operate outside of the rules (I have no idea if that's what happening in this instance btw just speaking in general)
     
  6. Siusaidh

    Siusaidh Retired Member

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    Andrew, just to be clear, I wasn't referring to you in anything I said above. In all dealings I've had with you, I've been grateful for your integrity and class. Just wanted to clarify that. Some people are bitchy though. The system is what it is. They shouldn't blame other people if they try to maximise the system. The system itself is the problem.

    To Murray: I respect you but I disagree - 'fair' IS everyone having the same chance, at the point that a name drops, without requiring the British public to have inside and detailed knowledge of what to be frank is an unnecessary system. Until everyone has equal access to released domains, based on market value, I can't say I am totally sympathetic to accusations of unfairness directed at people gaming a loose system which gets easily exploited. I can see it's frustrating, but the unfairness runs deeper, because even when you argue that people should be rewarded for developing catching skills (and I 'get' that), it is still a system that excludes 99.999 of the British public.

    But we've been through these issues before! Let's see what Nominet comes up with.
     
  7. Murray

    Murray Well-Known Member

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    It's 100% fair anyone can do it atm, become a Nominet registrar, learn to code or buy a competitive script

    I started without money or knowledge and I managed to carve out a small piece of the pie for myself

    Anyone could do what I did, albeit it's harder now with public catchers less competitive and generally a lack of quality domains dropping vs the past

    Why does it need to be handed to people on a plate? making it a lottery will benefit everyone and no one at the same time
     
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  8. AlexR South Africa

    AlexR Active Member

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    Can someone explain this to me please? I don't quite follow it!
     
  9. Siusaidh

    Siusaidh Retired Member

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    Murray, most of the UK public don't want to learn how to code, and shouldn't have to. If I'm running a business, and I'm working flat out at that, why should I have to learn how to code to access a domain name that would support my business. All that work, just for one domain. The coding element excludes the vast majority of people at the point where the domain becomes available. I don't think that's right. If it becomes available, I should be able to buy it immediately at the market price, whatever it will sell for. I believe domain releases should be opened up to the entire British public.

    I agree with your scepticism about a lottery system. That randomises everything, and the general public are no better off. It just complicates what should be the simple process of acquiring the domain as soon as it drops.
     
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  10. Whois-Search

    Whois-Search Retired Member

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    Real Time DAC

    The real time DAC is a maximum of 432,000 checks per rolling 24 hours.

    If there are 86400 seconds in a day you can check 5 times a second (432000 / 86400). Which means you can check every 200ms seconds (1000 ms / 5 ).

    You normally use 6 EPP connections to chase 6 names at once. You also look for the caching flaw in the DAC.

    Time Delay DAC

    The time delay Dac is delayed by 100ms to start with. However you get more quota (if you register a lot of names one month):

    “The daily limit is set at 5x the number of domain names on tag PLUS 200x the highest monthly new registrations figure from the previous 12 months and is capped at 3 million daily queries. This figure is recalculated at midnight on the first day of the month.”

    So if you registered 1000 names with 1000 on your tag already:

    5 x 1000 on tag = 5000 checks
    200 x 1000 new reg = 200,000 checks

    You could use those 205,000 extra lookups every 100ms to check in between your real time DAC checks? And who knows there might be another flaw?

    Not only that you can scan a bigger set of names including less valuable names (check more names at once). That is why he gets some names but not other premium drops.
     
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    Last edited: May 8, 2020
  11. bonusmedia

    bonusmedia Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
     
  12. Murray

    Murray Well-Known Member

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    They are open to the entire British public currently

    That's what happens at the moment? someone catches it, if people want it they approach them to buy

    A seller wants to sell, if they ask for too much they're only hurting themselves

    I want Murray.co.uk it sold for £552 in 2011 https://domainlore.uk/murray.co.uk before I became interested in domains

    I will never get it now, how is that fair? just because I became interested in it later than them

    Should a domain only be allowed to be registered for a year before it's auctioned again? would that be fairer? I think it would, it would make domains unusable pretty much but it would give everyone a fair crack (if your pockets are deep enough)

    Ultimately if the current system was changed to auctions 99% of auctions would be bought by domainers anyway
     
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  13. keys United Kingdom

    keys Well-Known Member

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    A simple answer might be to raise the registration and renewal costs, such that only small portfolios are financially viable. Two or three times the current level would make little difference to business use, but it would make dropcatching a lot less popular or competitive.

    No fear of this being implemented, because it would reduce overall revenues for Nominet.
     
  14. cyberpunk United Kingdom

    cyberpunk Active Member

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    One of the things Nominet could do to make it a little bit fairer is introduce an additional status on a dropping domain, say 'Q', that when set would allow queuing of registration requests at the EPP server, one of which is randomly selected as the winner. Think of this as a randomised queue structure.

    For instance, say the following domain "domain.uk" is dropping. Interested parties would query the DAC for "domain.uk" over the course of the day as normal. When the domain is about to drop, it enter's the 'Q' phase which lasts 1000ms. During this time, create requests sent to the EPP would be inserted into a randomised queue. At the end of the 'Q' phase, one of the requests in the queue is processed. If it fails, another request is randomly selected, until the domain is registered.

    The benefit of a random queue means that those with the fastest systems or bigger DAC quotas don't necessary win most of the time and gives other people a bit more chance to win their names.
     
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  15. webber

    webber Active Member

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    Not really, you can't reinvent the wheel... Must keep things in line with other registries as much as possible.
    But speaking of a new domain status – Reserved would be nice to have. Other registries use it. You reserve a domain and not get charged for it for up to 30 days during which you can change its status to registered. This would remove the need for the current 5% delete limit
     
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  16. AlexR South Africa

    AlexR Active Member

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    I'm not sure this is correct.

    1) A new tag has a daily limit of 480,000 lookups, since it's new I assume.
    2) As per nominet TOCS:
    If your daily limit is greater than 480,000 then your query rate is increased to 3x daily limit /1440
    -> so it would need to be above 480K to get the max 1000 daily limit?
    3) To get to the above 480K
    The daily limit is set at 5x the number of domain names on tag PLUS 200x the highest monthly new registrations figure from the previous 12 months and is capped at 3 million daily queries
    -> So to get a higher limit you'd need to register a bunch of domains in a month on the tag.
    e.g. if you registered 3000 domains in a month, you'd get
    2000 x 5 = 10 000
    2000 x 200=400 000
    410 000
    So you'd need to register more than 2K domains in a month to get over the 480k limit, in order to get more lookups?
    4) However the time delay has a 100ms response delay.
    "Queries can be sent to the time delay DAC without waiting for the previous query to return. The time delay DAC will just queue the queries."
    So they could just be queued, so the response time would be irrelevant?

    Have I understood this correctly?
     
  17. Fred Steven Cyprus

    Fred Steven Member

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    Would it not be most simple, that anybody can register an interest against a domain, and the system just randomly assigns a winner. That would make it fair for everybody and takes away the DAC issue and any flaws.
     
  18. DaveP United Kingdom

    DaveP Well-Known Member

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    Funny to still see threads like this pop up. Over the years exploits have been found time and again with either DAC or EPP. It is all part of the game. Some of us have gone on winning streaks in years gone by due to something we've discovered at one point or another.

    I done a fair bit of bitching myself in the past, but all in good competitive spirit of course. :)

    Stay safe everyone.
     
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  19. Whois-Search

    Whois-Search Retired Member

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    Real time Dac is 432,000
    Time Delay Dac is 480,000

    https://registrars.nominet.uk/uk-na...-domain-management/acceptable-use-policy/#dac

    Yes which is what BHAYDOM did when he caught 743 of our 3 letter .uk drops the other month.

    If there is a 100ms delay you can at least check every 100ms which is still faster than your 200ms real time shared quota.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
  20. wizard

    wizard Well-Known Member

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    True and you don’t really care as the drops are dreadful these days apart from link domains
     
  21. Hay

    Hay Active Member Exclusive Member

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    ...
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
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