Corona please read very important

[diablo]

As for Germany, nobody is saying ALL hospitals are currently overwhelmed. The same is true for the UK. Most of those testing positive do not need hospital treatment.

Also important to note that Germany has four times as many ICU beds as the UK per head of population. As a country, it has the capacity to cope much better. It is even taking patients from France and Italy to ease their burden.

Is there the potential for hospitals to be overwhelmed? Yes, hence the opening of new hospitals in preparation. If they are never needed, brilliant. If they are, they are there.

 

[BREWSTERS]

I didn't know that. So you can change your mind and admit you were wrong. I respect that a lot, I won't bring it up again.
If you don't mind I'm really curious what made you change your mind?

Sorry my mistake...answer to the other two is still no (until anyone can explain why an actor played the part of a father of one of the children, AND an FBI guy walking around the scene on the day carrying weapons. And he wasn't FBI)

No it isn't proof, I was being sarky, but you did ask a daft question.
If the hospitals stay empty I will be absolutely chuffed to bits, let's agree to wait and see.

Yes, we will see sooner or later I suppose.

 

[bonusmedia]

Totally agree with Edwin: it's Door #2. And yes, as a nurse, I find some of the comments and insinuations on this thread remarkably distasteful (not to say, pathetic).

THERE - IS - NO - CONSPIRACY.

This is a terrible pandemic.

I dread what might happen in Africa when it takes hold there. Here in the UK we need solidarity with everyone who is trying to help those with the virus. Stupid comments implying this crisis is fake just subvert the solidarity we owe it to others to uphold.

If all this is "normal" and made up, why not just go out and abandon social distancing? The internet can be great, but it also attracts idiotic fantasists and loonies: FACT.

Meanwhile, I suggest we all listen to the healthcare specialists on the frontline, rationally and decently doing their best. Listen to the dominant comments of people actually there, experiencing it all. WE are best placed to compare what's happening to all the years in the past we have worked on the wards.

What's happening is not fake. It's actually happening. We need the help of sane and decent people. We need practical help and SUPPORT of the community. Edwin's DOOR #1 is perfectly pitched. It shows how ridiculous and pathetic it is to suggest that it's all a big scare and a conspiracy, invented for ulterior ends.

People who assert DOOR #1 are making a mockery of the reality that trained healthcare specialists are living through. It's a slap in the face and an affront. Sure, nobodies on the internet have a right to their opinions. Don't expect me to respect, or not despise, them.

Some of those who champion conspiracy theories need help, because their paranoia may sadly be a mental health issue, and I suppose that merits compassion. What it doesn't merit is credibility. We are in a worldwide emergency. A practical emergency. The grown up thing is to ignore internet froth and ask yourself: how can I support the government and the healthcare staff and the many other essential workers, to try to reduce the deaths from this virus, and to help the vulnerable, and to show solidarity?

All I urge is practicality and decency and support. This is my final comment here, because I come here out of interest in domains. I'm out.

Thanks for your service.
I share your frustration, I think/hope it's really a tiny minority, it just gets amplified online.

There are a lot of people here who don't post any more or keep it strictly business etc.
TBH I have resolved to stop posting a few times and it might be time to take another break.

But just to say, I have appreciated reading your posts over the last however long it's been.

Very best wishes.

 

[bonusmedia]

@Admin

Hope you're safe and well. Sure you've got better things to worry about and this is your forum and your rules.
No-one wants to spend their time breaking up playground squabbles.
But this is important, and letting people spread conspiracy theories about a pandemic is really not doing anyone any favours. With respect, tolerating this sort of stuff is why I stopped supporting the forum.

How about a ban on conspiracy theories?

 

[Admin]

@BREWSTERS - Please stop sharing your conspiracy theories here.

 

[Murray]

People who assert DOOR #1 are making a mockery of the reality that trained healthcare specialists are living through. It's a slap in the face and an affront. Sure, nobodies on the internet have a right to their opinions. Don't expect me to respect, or not despise, them

There's a quote, not sure from who "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste"

Will some troubling laws be passed because of the pandemic that are never rescinded? likely yes; the same as there are some troubling anti-terrorism laws that could be open to abuse that came from the early 2000s

Will some wealthy people benefit? yes very likely, monetarily and getting a bigger slice of the pie in certain industries

I can understand why conspiracy theories arise because of the above, so to say "All because of "X the unknown", a secret only known to a few in a shadowy inner circle but which magically you're also privy" is silly and seems disingenuous

With all that being said though, as you say there are too many people working in healthcare who would come out and say everything seems normal if things were normal

If people want to speculate it was man made or released on purpose that door is open but to deny it's happening and is a problem that needs some type of reaction isn't rational

 

[AssetDomains]

Does anyone have any evidence of a pandemic, or even the start of one in this country?

Anyone know any health professionals who are experiencing the sort of things that are being put forward out of Spain and Italy?

Genuine requests.

I am a healthcare professional today my trust just cancelled all outpatient appointments over the last two weeks it has been completely reconfiguring and increasing capacity in ITU. it now has double what it had a month ago and has contingency plans to double this again using theatre vents if needed. I can tell you it hasn't just done this for fun. Its in response to pending healthcare emergency unlike anything we have seen for a century on this planet.
As for me as I said in my last few shift I've was called to X-ray more patients in or approaching respiratory arrest than I have ever seen during the previous 18 months so something is definitely different.
PS a pandemic by definition effects areas much larger than single countries as for evidence watch the videos from China, Italy, Spain and New York all the evidence you ever need is there 4 countries 3 continents or is that all just fake news.

Response doesn't prove cause.

I could build a cattle shed...doesn't prove I've got any cows. Lets see how that hospital fills up over the weeks shall we? And chat again then. Let's see if they get any more than the empty ones in Germany where their media said they had 1000 patients.

The whole point of this social isolating/lockdown is so that we don't get to a point that hospitals fill up get overwhelmed I hope the nightingale stays empty and my hospitals extra ITU beds don't get filled that's a massive win for society.
As for Germany and empty hospitals. They prepared very well they followed WHO recommendations ramped up testing and quarantined those effected this has stopped them getting in the situation of Italy or Spain or new York.
If Boris trump and others had the foresight of Merkle we wouldn't be looking at the months of lockdown we now are we would be like South Korea largely going about normal business but taking measures to stop the virus running rampant that are a lot less damaging to the economy and are civil liberties.

As for one world governments If your one world government is run by the South Koreans bring it on is what I say.
Maybe we need a one world government to put an end to war indifference to climate change etc. As long as the one world government is democratic what is the big deal anyway.

 

[bonusmedia]

Last week the authorities said they would set up local community hubs to deliver supplies to the most vulnerable who are locked down at home for 12 weeks. Wondering how that's progressing, can't find much info.

Has anyone joined any volunteer groups or the NHS volunteer scheme?
If so have you started yet?

 

[AssetDomains]

As much as I hate YouTube for information interesting video when we get round to looking how different this could have been and where blame needs to lie.

 

[Edwin]

Last week the authorities said they would set up local community hubs to deliver supplies to the most vulnerable who are locked down at home for 12 weeks. Wondering how that's progressing, can't find much info.

Here you go. 2,000 parcels delivered so far, and a hoped-for 50,000 by the end of this week. Doesn't sound like much compared to the 1.5 million people affected. Let's hope all the others have obliging family, friends and neighbours!
https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-29...rs-of-people-being-shielded-from-coronavirus/

 

[BREWSTERS]

I am a healthcare professional today my trust just cancelled all outpatient appointments over the last two weeks it has been completely reconfiguring and increasing capacity in ITU. it now has double what it had a month ago and has contingency plans to double this again using theatre vents if needed. I can tell you it hasn't just done this for fun. Its in response to pending healthcare emergency unlike anything we have seen for a century on this planet.
As for me as I said in my last few shift I've was called to X-ray more patients in or approaching respiratory arrest than I have ever seen during the previous 18 months so something is definitely different.
PS a pandemic by definition effects areas much larger than single countries as for evidence watch the videos from China, Italy, Spain and New York all the evidence you ever need is there 4 countries 3 continents or is that all just fake news.

My partner is a Sister over an out patients dept. That was closed down about 10 days ago...they've turned it into temporary sleeping quarters for staff, for 'when' this takes off. All clinics are cancelled, onchology dept closed, etc. Her hospital is the designated one for CV (out of 3 large general hospitals in that region). Staff are contacting her at all hours worried about working etc. At the moment they have fewer people with respiratory issues than is normal across the three sites. Is your hospital a designated one? Hence you're getting more respiratory patients to your site? She describes it as 'the calm before the storm' due to the orders that have come down from above. They're all terrified. But she says the place is eerily quiet.

I know these things aren't done for fun. Those orders were based on worse-case-scenario numbers from computer modelling from Imperial College which predicted 500k potential deaths. They've since downgraded that to 20k...and most recently 'up to 7k'. A couple of things about this; 1. Why has the UK and US governments taken the word of one computer modeller (if you sell a house you get 3 estate agents to give you prices right? You don't accept what the first one says)? 2. Why are they talking of even harsher measures despite their so-trusted computer modeller downgrading the possible severity by 98.6%

The whole point of this social isolating/lockdown is so that we don't get to a point that hospitals fill up get overwhelmed I hope the nightingale stays empty and my hospitals extra ITU beds don't get filled that's a massive win for society.
As for Germany and empty hospitals. They prepared very well they followed WHO recommendations ramped up testing and quarantined those effected this has stopped them getting in the situation of Italy or Spain or new York.
If Boris trump and others had the foresight of Merkle we wouldn't be looking at the months of lockdown we now are we would be like South Korea largely going about normal business but taking measures to stop the virus running rampant that are a lot less damaging to the economy and are civil liberties.

As for one world governments If your one world government is run by the South Koreans bring it on is what I say.
Maybe we need a one world government to put an end to war indifference to climate change etc. As long as the one world government is democratic what is the big deal anyway.

The point with Germany, is that their media were hyping the numbers, saying 1000 in ICU in Berlin...when there patently wasn't. And hospital staff say they can't understand the media reports. Why are the media pushing a lie...wouldn't it be better for them to say how fantastic the German system is, and this is how they have contained it?

(NO THEORIES IN THE ABOVE)

 

[diablo]

The point with Germany, is that their media were hyping the numbers, saying 1000 in ICU in Berlin...when there patently wasn't. And hospital staff say they can't understand the media reports. Why are the media pushing a lie...wouldn't it be better for them to say how fantastic the German system is, and this is how they have contained it?

(NO THEORIES IN THE ABOVE)

Figures for Berlin are published daily. On Saturday, for example, there were 2337 confirmed cases. Of those, 64 occupied ICU beds.

 

[bonusmedia]

Sigh...

The 500,000 number was the predicted outcome of doing nothing ('herd immunity').
The 20,000 number was the predicted outcome with the drastic counter-measures.

Of course there are different models, of course they don't all agree, there is no correct answer, there are only the best predictions we can make. They are not getting a quote from an estate agent. It is not just one bloke on his laptop pulling numbers out of the air. Imperial College is among the most respected institutions in the world at doing this stuff.

You have not provided any credible evidence that the media are 'pushing a lie'. You've got it wrong. I appreciate you are not going to recognise that. I think we're all really tired of correcting your dodgy assumptions now. Stop.

 

[Murray]

You have not provided any credible evidence that the media are 'pushing a lie'. You've got it wrong. I appreciate you are not going to recognise that. I think we're all really tired of correcting your dodgy assumptions now. Stop.

I do think the media, as with everything, are more likely to go with sensational headlines because that gets more clicks

Sensational in this case is, the scarier the better

But then you can argue it's good to be scary because fear works, will help keep people inside and that's what we probably need to be doing at the moment

 

[bonusmedia]

Obviously it depends on the media source.
So for example:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...ing-death-rate-boris-johnson-peter-drobac-bbc
Here is the Express blatantly lying in suggesting 500k was a best case scenario, when at the time it was the worst case scenario.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-negotiator-Downing-Streets-Patient-Zero.html
Here is the Mail manipulating peoples' xenophobia to blame a foreigner, playing on hate for the EU, suggesting Barnier deliberately infected Boris as revenge for Brexit. It's pitiful stuff.
When a tabloid runs a story with a question like that in the headline, the answer is always no. If they had the slightest whiff of evidence, they'd run it. It's extremely manipulative, our tabloid press has blood on its hands.

 

[diablo]

A week or so ago The Daly Mail was claiming looting was beginning in the UK....

 

[diablo]

Interesting intervention in the debate by Lord Sumpton.

'Is this serious enough to warrant...depression, stress, heart attacks, suicides and unbelievable distress inflicted on millions of people who are not especially vulnerable and will suffer only mild symptoms or none at all?'

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.c...ainst-hysteria-driven-government-policy-.html

 

[bonusmedia]

Interesting intervention in the debate by Lord Sumpton.

'Is this serious enough to warrant...depression, stress, heart attacks, suicides and unbelievable distress inflicted on millions of people who are not especially vulnerable and will suffer only mild symptoms or none at all?'

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.c...ainst-hysteria-driven-government-policy-.html

This thinking assumes that there actually is an option to carry on as normal. How would that work? The NHS hits capacity, just stops treating people and leaves them to die at home, and we all stay at work while hundreds of thousands of our loved ones' bodies mount up? Is that supposed to be less stressful/depressing than staying at home for a while?

It's a very bizarre take on human nature.

The first duty of the state is to protect the lives of citizens.

 

[diablo]

This thinking assumes that there actually is an option to carry on as normal.

Nowhere in that piece does Hanson advocate carrying on as normal. I think you're missing the point he is making.

 

[bonusmedia]

Nowhere in that piece does Hanson advocate carrying on as normal. I think you're missing the point he is making.

Ok, that's fair. He doesn't argue for carrying on as normal.

"But the real question is : Is this serious enough to warrant putting most of our population into house imprisonment, wrecking our economy for an indefinite period..."

He is arguing that the the threat is probably overblown, the reaction is hysterical, and lockdown and isolation may have bad outcomes that could outweigh the benefit of saving lives, especially in terms of legal precedents, policing etc. Is that a fair summary?

So if not 'normal', presumably he would want something in between, where we try to protect the most vulnerable but we don't have widespread lockdowns, distancing etc? I think that was essentially the government's initial position, didn't number 10 say Italy was taking populist measures and 'they are who not to follow'.

There may be some hysteria, but if anything the bigger problem over the last 2 weeks has not been trying to calm a hysterical public, it's been trying to get everyone to take it seriously. In my view.

So I think I'd ask him to explain why he distrusts the scientific advice, and how he thinks we ought to handle it in a way that avoids panic and hysteria etc. When the PM told people a lot of our loved ones are going to die, I don't think that was hysterical, I think it was preparing people for the reality as we best understand it.

I think he makes a very fair point about government scrutiny.

I completely disagree with the idea that we should leave it up to the public to analyse the science and 'draw common sense conclusions'. Many of the public do not have the ability to analyse the science, lots of aspects are counter-intuitive (such as exponential growth) and there is no relevant experience to draw on in living memory - there isn't any 'common sense'. We need experts.

It's also a bit strange to first argue that the public is suffering from infectious hysteria and then that we should be letting the public decide for themselves.