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Like for Like the only way for Nominet

Discussion in '.UK Domain Name Consultations' started by julian, Oct 4, 2013.

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  1. julian United Kingdom

    julian Banned

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    I was thinking, that given recent issues, 100% like for like pairing of .UK with .co.uk must be the only way for Nominet to push things through.

    This pretty much solves the potential e-mail, corporate and tm problems.

    S if you're being offered new .UK to go along with your .co.uk, I can't see how the .UK introduction can be refuted :confused:
     
  2. Domain Forum

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  3. scooter United Kingdom

    scooter Well-Known Member

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    This is all only about money. Nothing else. No-one needs .UK

    If they pair it all you end up with is the same crock of shit you have left unregged in the co.uk namespace. A mirrored image.

    Damned if you do:
    Pair it automatically and make you pay for it?

    Damned if you dont:
    Dont pair it automatically but offer first refusal. Business is going to buy to protect their co.uk so they still fork out unnecessary money.

    and either way you still end up with the same crock of shit you have left unregged in the co.uk namespace at present. A mirrored image.



    It is all bollocks and more people are starting to say so




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  4. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    registrant decision

    Due to the simplicity of the "pairing .co.uk and .uk" solution it can be done at no cost to the .co.uk registrant and the small cost to Nominet can easily be covered from the current surplus.

    The .org.uk owners and others would go on as they do now, .uk being clearly marked for business, although I'm sure that others will use the tld for other purposes.

    Even though this has been pushed as a potential solution in V1 and V2, I still feel nominet should do a study to ensure there are no adverse side effects to existing registrants and that exactly how technically it would work to minimize effort by the domain owners.

    It was disappointed that Nominet raised this as a question as to why this alternative suggestion was never considered by Nominet in V2?

    Some have expressed views that it is a technical problem, others more cynically have stated that "Nominet would not earn anything from it"
    but I have always felt if introduced fully with no sale of separate .co.uk and .uk then it would actually benefit the UK namespace and leave the decision to the registrant whether to upgrade from .co.uk to .uk.
     
  5. scooter United Kingdom

    scooter Well-Known Member

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    Ok, lets look at it from what you state Stephen.

    If Nominet were to "pair" for free, what is the point in launching in the first place? Nominet are not in it to doing things for free. Even if they state they will do it for free for 5yrs, business is still being held to ransom 5yrs down the road onwards.

    You stated before you thought about it being good to launch as things have to "Evolve"

    Fair enough, then lets make that "evolvement" seamless with no-one getting hurt.


    This was said waaaay back.......

    1. Automatically pair all existing co.uk with the .uk
    2. On the day of launch, co.uk becomes non existant to register. You can now only reg .uk
    3. All paired names stay paired for the lifetime they are reregistered. When they drop, co.uk is deleted and .uk becomes available again.

    Seemless transition to .uk. no confusion, no squatting, no miss directed emails, no court cases.

    But wait!
    There is no value for Nominet in this. No extra revenue. All they are hell bent on doing is massively inflating their coffers.




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  6. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    Nominet need to be reminded

    Some comments

    1. Nominet have to raise any money in 5+ years from .uk, they have the power now to change the price of .co.uk if they wanted, so no difference with the addition of .uk, so no being held ransom any more than now with .co.uk.
    2. .co.uk would still be working and available, just if you registered a new .co.uk you would get the .uk and vice versa in the current registration fee.
    3. I cannot disagree after V1 auctions and Nominet's suggested pricing of £5 p.a. for .uk that is certainly looks like money is a major driver in the Nominet decision making process! But it doesn't make it right, Nominet need to be reminded they are there for the UK namespace not self -interest or to be charity that can give £50,000,000 p.a. away.
     
  7. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    If they're paired forever for free, then there are the following benefits:

    - no misdirected email or phishing issues (between .co.uk and .uk at least)
    - no additional cost to registrants
    - increased desirability of .uk namespace (something Nominet's trying to push for in the face of the new GTLD) since commercial registrants get a very well-known extension and a second "backup" one for the price of one.
    - increased renewal rates (opportunity cost is doubled, since if you don't renew you lose two names) - another of Nominet's concerns answered

    However, you still have customer confusion generally, you don't free up any new namespace, and it's not at all evident to me that the technical side is trivial at Nominet's end.

    So Nominet won't make any more money directly, but they might well make more in an uptick in registrations and in renewals in the "paired .co.uk/.uk" namespace.

    Important caveat: I am assuming in the above that the two names are literally indivisible - you can't own, drop, sell, renew etc. one without the other.

    What if - and this is a completely hypothetical question - Nominet offered all the above but raised the price of all UK namespace domain name registrations by £1/year across the board? That would bring them £10,000,000/year extra which would be a huge extra boost, and would easily pay for the system/process changes required to implement the above.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  8. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    No need for any price increase

    Thanks for listing some of the benefits.

    Regarding the problems, from Nominet's current position, this would be unfair on .org.uk owners who registered before .co.uk owners but as .org.uk is for a defined purpose and that purpose is unaffected by .uk then I do not see that as a barrier, but include for the sake of completeness.

    On points you raised;
    1. "However, you still have customer confusion generally" - it is easy to state .co.uk and .uk are one and the same and interchangeable.
    2. "you don't free up any new namespace" - currently nominet have used that that as a reason and during V1 when it was THE reason, no supporting evidence has been provided to support it, as a major problem in the UK namespace.
    3. "not at all evident to me that the technical side is trivial" - I just don't know and Nominet have not answered on the point since it was raised with them in November 2012.

    Sadly I was going to raise the issues of .co.uk and .uk pairing at Nominet .uk meeting for feedback but was unfortunately not allowed to attend, so I still don't have any answers from Nominet on this issue.

    Agree about the desirability of .uk / .co.uk pair especially at current price point and how it would keep Nominet relevant as well as giving it a commercial advantage in the domain market.

    No need for any price increase.

    The current Nominet surplus of £5,000,000 p.a. would easily cover the cost of .uk implementation and still not effect the donation of £6,000,0000 p.a. to Nominet Trust.

    Can anybody please post details of any UK "public purpose" organization that creates a surplus of 50% of revenue and 25% of the total revenue goes to Charity?
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  9. markb United Kingdom

    markb Active Member

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    I don't even see like for like pairing with the .co.uk working. As I am sure nominet would still then want to reserve lots of .uk names for various organisations and other reasons. Probably even more domains than they have already mentioned would be reserved if this was the way forward for the .uk.
     
  10. AssetDomains United Kingdom

    AssetDomains Well-Known Member

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    If they do go with complete pairing (which I hope they do) then I believe they would have to drop the reserved list to make it work
     
  11. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    extra exceptions?

    Under the current proposal Nominet only want to protect 2 domains for .uk, uk.uk and com.uk and as nobody has com.co.uk and uk.co.uk, see Whois

    The other domains they have suggested, namely the non-government departments (50 ish domains out of 10m) has not had any support I have seen during the whole process.

    If .uk reverts back as it did in V1; for "business" plus adding the .co.uk owners, I really don't see that Nominet will try to put in extra exceptions to the simple .co.uk get .uk principle.
     
  12. markb United Kingdom

    markb Active Member

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    I think if nominet haven't reserved the .co.uk, me.co.uk or .org.uk domain then they shouln't have any reason to reserve the corresponding .uk domain.
     
  13. scooter United Kingdom

    scooter Well-Known Member

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    I must be on a different planet to you and Stephen.

    You state:
    If they're paired forever for free, then there are the following benefits:

    you go on to state.....
    increased renewal rates (opportunity cost is doubled, since if you don't renew you lose two names)


    They are PAIRED. Why would you care? If you do not care losing a co.uk now, why would you care losing a co.uk and a .uk in the future? This to me makes no sense as they are one and the same if they are paired.


    Stephen, you state....
    Nominet have to raise any money in 5+ years from .uk, they have the power now to change the price of .co.uk if they wanted, so no difference with the addition of .uk, so no being held ransom any more than now with .co.uk.

    So, they get paired for life. When you reg a .co uk you get the .UK
    What is the point??? Why get 2 names?


    .co.uk would still be working and available, just if you registered a new .co.uk you would get the .uk and vice versa in the current registration fee.
    Again, what is the point??? Why get 2 names?


    What is the commercial benefit for UK business?

    Answer...... NONE






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  14. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    I think you're mistaking discussing an idea, and advocating it. It's perfectly possible to look at the pros and cons of a non-ideal situation.

    It would be better not to have .uk (significantly better than pairing). That hasn't changed.

    To cover your other point, in the context of pairing, non-renewal would lose 2 names not one which suggests at least some people might hesitate before being willing to lose both. It only has to encourage "some" to increase retention rates.
     
  15. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    commercial benefits

    Part of the answer is it protects the existing 9,600,000 .co.uk domain registrants, so they don't have all the problems that would have been caused under the V1 and V2 .uk nominet proposals.
    It may not be much of an advantage but it is better than going through .uk consultation V3 4 & 5.

    To me .uk is better than .co.uk and I think consumers will take to it, so it will help generate more traffic .

    .uk is structured more like many other countries extensions and so when communicating to exports and tourists the job may be a little a bit easier.

    There will be some businesses , I don't know how many that
    believe .uk is a better,
    fresher, more up to date,
    easier to use for exports,
    easier to use for tourists
    and would like to move to use .uk rather than .co.uk as there main domains but do not want somebody else to own .co.uk
    or have extra costs of owning their prime UK web address.

    For businesses in the Uk that use .com .net .biz as they were shorter than .co.uk (strange I did meet such a person yesterday)
    they will consider moving to .uk and registering their domain.

    For those that don't want to move across to .uk from .co.uk there is no benefit, except that if they ever change their mind
    they can and it will not cost them anything and it can be done straight away.

    I have always advocated Nominet should do a fair and independent study on the effects and economic value of .uk and .co.uk pairing,
    as I maybe live on a separate plant and that is why a real study with a range of people should be undertaken, as it is too important to get it wrong.

    Regarding prices, Nominet could raise price of .co.uk tomorrow to be in line with other domain prices such as .com .eu .net, if it was only about money.
    My reference to 5 years was in reply to your assertion that 5 years later if nominet provided .uk for free they could then put up prices.

    "why get 2 names?" - the answer is to protect the other. It has been mentioned many times, the .co.uk is the PRIME Uk tld and it should not be sold again as .uk or .com.uk for that matter.
    So the only way to provide .uk for those that want it, whilst protecting the interests of millions of current registrants is to link them and provide them as a package.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  16. anthony United Kingdom

    anthony Well-Known Member

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    This thread serves to show that deep down, the vested interest is simmering away like a devil on the shoulder. The bias in favour of .co.uk is clouding some peoples judgement.
     
  17. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    So what would be your unbiased opinion, since you believe others are expressing their own biases?
     
  18. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    Mine is to either don't do it at all or, if you really think you have to do it, pair up .co.uk and .uk. Over 90% of existing *.uk domain names are .co.uk. The very vast majority of Internet users in the United Kingdom will be aware of .co.uk and understand it. Much less so for the other SLDs. To add a rule stating that example.co.uk and example.uk are one and the same really isn't complicated for anyone to grasp. Any other method of distribution would be more complicated for ordinary end users.
     
  19. philiporchard United Kingdom

    philiporchard Well-Known Member Acorn Supporter

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    I'd probably benefit more if we go with the 'aged' approach, as some of my .org.uk and .me.uk might have a chance...

    However, a straightforward pairing is the only fair way for businesses who have built brands on their .co.uk domains. If it doesn't protect business owners then it's a bad idea.
     
  20. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    who do you think an impartial would choose?

    I would repeat Edwin's post "So what would be your unbiased opinion, since you believe others are expressing their own biases? "

    93% of UK domains are .co.uk
    and .co.uk is the prime UK tld
    and most .org.uk with not for profit websites own the .co.uk (which I have investigated, as some felt they would be the biggest loser)
    and anybody how believes they have a right to the .co.uk have had nearly 20 years to sort it out (if the domain has been registered that long)

    When I meet up with my MP about .uk, she reminded me that last time .uk was all about business and although she had issues with security and existing registrants rights in V1, she thought that was one thing Nominet had got right, '.uk should be for business' but the existing .co.uk owners should be fully protected if it is introduced and preferably at no cost.

    I'm sure if I spoke to some who have a lot of old .me.uk domains that would get a windfall if they were given rights to the .uk, they would say 'yes' to existing proposal, out of self interest. But some will look at the bigger picture.

    Maybe consider, if you explained the options and there related problems and asked an impartial person who should get the .uk, who do you think they would choose?
    but if course with all the options they may choose not to release the .uk at all!
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  21. Retired_Member38

    Retired_Member38 Banned

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    It'll depend how you frame the question (or how much info you give them in the first place)

    Point out to them Hotmail.uk is going to be picked up by the .org.uk owner and you'll be able to get them to agree to .co.uk getting everything.

    Point out that a variety of charities and tourist attractions are going to the lose the .uk equivelents to domainers/squatters if you give them to .co.uk owners... you'll easily be able to get a different answer.
     
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