Why do we struggle?

[Retired_Member42]

It could equally be argued that the more difficult and expensive it becomes to rank a site the more valuable a domain with easy recall and recognisable content becomes.

Well, no, because you either rank or you don't unless you're talking about scraping the odd sale here and there from ridiculously long tail phrases which I'm guessing anyone investing so much in a project isn't really interested in. Lights.co.uk isn't going to get you anywhere quicker or cheaper. If anything it's going to be more expensive as you've lost half the important metrics. So regardless, you'd need the same budget for each. If you don't get to the position of gaining customers, then recall is irrelevant surely as you've no customers anyway?

 

[Retired_Member42]

But again I'm not talking about choosing something obscure for your domain either. You can find something equally memorable but significantly more brandable for the same money or less.

 

[Retired_Member42]

Anyway, thread was fun for the first few pages but it's got a little boring. We'll all just have to agree to disagree I guess and build our brands/projects as we see fit.

 

[websaway]

Well, no, because you either rank or you don't unless you're talking about scraping the odd sale here and there from ridiculously long tail phrases which I'm guessing anyone investing so much in a project isn't really interested in. Lights.co.uk isn't going to get you anywhere quicker or cheaper. If anything it's going to be more expensive as you've lost half the important metrics. So regardless, you'd need the same budget for each. If you don't get to the position of gaining customers, then recall is irrelevant surely as you've no customers anyway?

99.9 % of businesses scrape the odd sale here and there, if every business could rank page 1 for high search terms and turn there site into a money machine it would of course be wonderful, the top search engine makes sure that doesn't happen, it keeps it a moving target.
The vast majority cannot and therefore a domain name such as the subject domain holds a number of other qualities which makes it inherently valuable.

 

[Lucky Luke]

Slightly controversially, won't .uk be an easier addon and more brandable in time than .co.uk? It's less of a mouthful. Snappier, like .com

I hear what Redemption says and agree with him, but I was just wondering whether, for example, "Lights.UK" is more brandable than "Lights.co.uk".

I realise that you'd be pushing into the new .uk death zone and leaving the safe shores of .co.uk, but isn't the EMD.uk more brandable than EMD.co.uk in general terms?

Glow.UK or Glow.co.uk? Doesn't really matter which perhaps, but Lights.UK or Lights.co.uk? I like the chutzpah of Lights.UK

Just a poorly informed view, but give it five or ten years, and lights.co.uk may have wished they'd kicked off straight away with lights.uk....possibly!

 

[martin-s]

Nah - if/when it happens in the UK, everyone will be switching over. Why fight to blaze a trail when you can hang off other peoples' coattails.

 

[humble pie]

So what do you suggest as the future then.

You don't like generic domains e.g. you don't believe in building a website business around your loans.co.uk or chess.com, diy.com or lights.co.uk types.

What do you think is the right way to go - what should lights.co.uk have purchased instead?

Talk about clutching at straws There are always going to be examples of domains that work but it's about the majority and for the vast VAST majority these sort of domains will not work at all. I've got .org.uk that still rank but we're not all rushing to tell people to build on them are we.

 

[Retired_Member42]

So what do you suggest as the future then.

You don't like generic domains e.g. you don't believe in building a website business around your loans.co.uk or chess.com, diy.com or lights.co.uk types.

What do you think is the right way to go - what should lights.co.uk have purchased instead?

Sod it, if one person reads this and builds a successful brand be it online or offline instead of following the guff domain investors spout as the be all and end all it'll be a job well done.

For me, a good brand and therefore a good domain name is a short, prounancable, memorable word that isn't confused with any other company and anyone mentioning it or searching for it will be primarily talking about or searching for your business. Couple that with being able to secure your .co.uk, .com extensions and social handles and you're pretty close to perfection.

 

[Retired_Member42]

And it's not that I don't like generic domains as such. I just think their time has been and gone online. Domains that match the criteria above though, I'm all over. Difficult from an investment perspective though admittedly as in this instance you really do need to wait for the "right buyer".

 

[ian]

For me, a good brand and therefore a good domain name is a short, prounancable, memorable word that isn't confused with any other company and anyone mentioning it or searching for it will be primarily talking about or searching for your business. Couple that with being able to secure your .co.uk, .com extensions and social handles and you're pretty close to perfection.

I'd agree with that, my main brand operates from the .co.uk, with forwarding from .com, .net, .uk and .org.uk and has the same name for Twitter etc. I'd certainly take this same approach again, but obtaining all these things is harder to achieve now.

 

[humble pie]

And it's not that I don't like generic domains as such. I just think their time has been and gone online. Domains that match the criteria above though, I'm all over. Difficult from an investment perspective though admittedly as in this instance you really do need to wait for the "right buyer".

Can you answer my question - you stated lights.Co.UK is a hopeless domain for their business because of the 'lost' traffic and brand recognition for (lights), it's pretty much going to be down the pan.. What do you recommend as being the better domain they should have chosen?

Thanks.

 

[Retired_Member42]

Can you answer my question - you stated lights.Co.UK is a hopeless domain for their business because of the 'lost' traffic and brand recognition for (lights), it's pretty much going to be down the pan.. What do you recommend as being the better domain they should have chosen?

Thanks.

Firstly, I didn't say it was going to go down the pan. I said I didn't like the domain because when all things considered, the negatives outweighed the positives both online and offline. But how can I say it will go down the pan? I have absolutely no idea. As many have pointed out, there are generic domains that have become successful here and there, this may well end up being one of them. My point all along is that a generic domain is not the be all and end all when it comes to branding and there are other more important factors to consider than simply owning what we know as a good "domain". In addition, there isn't a one size fits all. The domain must be suited to their business and not just in terms of relevancy.

As for an alternative or what they "should" have chosen, I've really no idea. I'm not a brand consultant, I'm actually shite at coming up with brand names to be honest and if you think I'm going to come up with an alternative for them in 20 seconds as a result of a forum post - only for it to be ridiculed by a bunch of tunnel-vision domainers you can think again I've given what I consider to be the guidelines, it's up to whoever is looking to create a brand to take them on board and go through the options. Let's be honest, if I can simply state a brand name off the cuff there and then as a result of a forum post then it probably isn't a good brand name at all. I realise you want me to name something so you can post all the things that are wrong with it to suit your argument of a generic being the holy grail but I won't.

All I know about offline branding is common sense. Look at the biggest brands in the world. Look at the top 1000 biggest sites in the UK. Look at the companies that are ranking in their respective niches etc How many companies can you name off the top of your head and how many of them are branded as a generic domain name? In terms of solely online, I know what works and what doesn't SEO wise, that is my field and with the exception of a few grandfathered in EMD's and some new low traffic / low competition keywords, EMD's don't rank any better than a traditional branded domain. They're also a nightmare to promote because of the very reasons I've mentioned in the thread.

 

[websaway]

I think some people ignore the fact that a short EMD can be a short cut to recognition.

It's misleading to keep quoting large multi national brands where time and billions are behind their success.

It's simple, the right domain is a shortcut to recognition for those who don't want to be multinationals but who want to promote their wares in their chosen field.

It's not rocket science.

 

[Retired_Member42]

I think some people ignore the fact that a short EMD can be a short cut to recognition.

It's misleading to keep quoting large multi national brands where time and billions are behind their success.

It's simple, the right domain is a shortcut to recognition for those who don't want to be multinationals but who want to promote their wares in their chosen field.

It's not rocket science.

I agree the right domain is a shortcut to brand recognition but the right domain is NOT always a generic product/service domain. It's not a case of use Lights.co.uk or SomeLongNameYouDontRemember.co.uk - there is an entire spectrum and I believe that most people could acquire a short, memorable brand name that would work significantly better for them. More so if they had the kind of budget to buy something like Lights.co.uk

I talk about large brands not because I expect people to want to become them. I talk about them as they know what it takes to form a good brand and whether you're a small business or a multinational, the core principals in terms of branding are the same.

 

[websaway]

And an EMD isn't snake oil.

You're essentially saying, get a great EMD domain and you're made and that's absolutely not the case in 2015. Getting the recognition you talk about will cost a similar amount whichever route you go.

You're also assuming that a brandable domain can't have equal or greater recall.

I think the 2015 thing is addressed by a drop in prices of top domains since 2010.
For a small business the ideal EMD is 2 to 5k
And like your van or office the cost to purchase is the repayments of the loan.
So say 3k over 10 years

you do the math.

Most small businesses are not in the least bit interested in protecting a brand.
They simply want the tools to maintain their level of business without too much distraction. That's the real world.

 

[Retired_Member42]

I think the 2015 thing is addressed by a drop in prices of top domains since 2010.
For a small business the ideal EMD is 2 to 5k
And like your van or office the cost to purchase is the repayments of the loan.
So say 3k over 10 years

you do the math.

Most small businesses are not in the least bit interested in protecting a brand.
They simply want the tools to maintain their level of business without too much distraction. That's the real world.

Surely any business wants to grow though? Why shackle yourself to a restrictive product/service EMD?

The argument seems to have gone from an EMD being the best choice out there for any business to it being something that's suitable for a small business who just cares about staying afloat and the odd sale here and there.

And my argument has always been about forming a new brand day one. Not migrating something else over. If you're talking about established businesses, large or small migrating to an EMD then I think that's even worse.

I don't know why I keep going on about this. The market dictates.

 

[websaway]

Surely any business wants to grow though? Why shackle yourself to a restrictive product/service EMD?

The argument seems to have gone from an EMD being the best choice out there for any business to it being something that's suitable for a small business who just cares about staying afloat and the odd sale here and there.

And my argument has always been about forming a new brand day one. Not migrating something else over. If you're talking about established businesses, large or small migrating to an EMD then I think that's even worse.

I don't know why I keep going on about this. The market dictates.

I can tell you the best way to make sure a business does not grow, is to spend a fortune ranking the business on a top search engine only to find your business falls apart when you disappear from the first ten pages either gradually, or worse, overnight.
If you want to rank high then you can purchase your position from the engine.
That is their real business.

I appreciate for seo businesses to thrive they do have to sell a dream.
That should not be by discouraging businesses from getting short descriptive memorable easily affordable domains.

 

[Retired_Member42]

I can tell you the best way to make sure a business does not grow, is to spend a fortune ranking the business on a top search engine only to find your business falls apart when you disappear from the first ten pages either gradually, or worse, overnight.
If you want to rank high then you can purchase your position from the engine.
That is their real business.

I appreciate for seo businesses to thrive they do have to sell a dream.
That should not be by discouraging businesses from getting short descriptive memorable easily affordable domains.

I agree completely and if you tried to promote an EMD on Google you'd do exactly that, spend an absolute fortune and have it ripped apart by the very metrics that you think are working in your favour by having an EMD.

Why bother? Why not create a none product/service brand and let people searching for you and talking about your brand do the leg work. SEO doesn't actually cost that much money and it's relatively risk free if you keep it clean. Unfortunately for the EMD brigade, even if you tried to keep it clean, you'd end up penalised.

Nothing to do with selling a dream. If anything a lot of SEO companies would do the same thing you're suggesting their customers do, buy a descriptive domain.

Anyway, this is getting borderline ridiculous now. If you believe that EMD's are a great buy for businesses than by all means keep peddling it but as I say, the market will dictate and you only have to look at what businesses are using, the search results and domain name sales to see the way it's going.

 

[websaway]

For the avoidance of any doubt.

The message I am promoting is:

"A short descriptive memorable domain, such as signs dot co dot uk or signs dot com,

can be a short cut for a new or small business to gain instant RECOGNITION."

 

[humble pie]

@redemption

@sean

methinks your both still dodging my question

Your both experts in 'domain names', so tell me (us all) what should they have choosen instead of lights.co.uk - I'm happy to say that I think this is a very good domain for their market sector and although it not *perfection* the positives out weight the negatives, 80/20 if you like.

You've both clearly stated that its not very good to use this sort of domain any more because of the 'loss of brand recognition' in that particular space and fact Lights.co.uk 'maybe' are going to lose a portion of the market share because of the generic nature of the name, confusion etc. which I understand is your view point. Can we assume buying it this late in the game to was not for emd boost anyway.

We all must be able to come up with a brand name instead of Lights.co.uk this thread is nearly 3 days old now all that time to think about it

Here's mine UberLights.co.uk - its German and English combo, what do we think?

Thanks.