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Hi Cuailean
Very good post. Much appreciated.
Cheers, Luke
Very good post. Much appreciated.
Cheers, Luke
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are domains with a dash - worth regging ?
- Thread starter justwondering
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Very BAD post - takes up disk space, says very little, contributes nothing to the discussion.
If you like the post, add to the man's reputation. Don't waste forum resources!
If I could just add something here.
Quoting a whole post, particularly a long one, is not necessarily a good use of resources and can lead to excessive repetition in a thread. However giving appreciation in addition to giving rep seems fine by me. It's also nice to correct people gently
The above notwithstanding there may be forum rules dealing with this.
Quoting a whole post, particularly a long one, is not necessarily a good use of resources and can lead to excessive repetition in a thread. However giving appreciation in addition to giving rep seems fine by me. It's also nice to correct people gently
The above notwithstanding there may be forum rules dealing with this.
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I have never seen any evidence to suggest that google takes any notice of dashes in terms of rankings. I think google ignores them on the whole. However, I am concerned there may be a slightly lower level of trust amongst some potential visitors when they see a hyphenated domain. I also think G favours websites that are visited more than others (or at least this is one of G's 100+ factors in its algorhythm) so that could account for some loss of position in the search engines.
I say go for it with a dash. A .co.uk with a dash is probably worth more than the .org.uk without a dash. But there is not much in it. Don't let little things like this get in your way of getting started.
I say go for it with a dash. A .co.uk with a dash is probably worth more than the .org.uk without a dash. But there is not much in it. Don't let little things like this get in your way of getting started.
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Yes Vizzo, that is indeed my order of preference for domains, based on how easily they rank in Google, with equal development effort (for me at least) . I speak as someone who likes to develop her names, to varying degrees. So the exact match advantage of the no dash names is far more important to me than potential domain sale value.
I'm not sure I would ever buy with-dash.org.uks. I would go more for the excellent nodash.org.uks and good, niche, nodash.co.uks that are still free to reg, dropping soon, or cheaply available from other domainers on sites like this. It just takes a lot of patience and time to do the searching required to find the gems.
If I was looking purely at potential sales value, without development, I might well put the with-dash.co.uk higher than the nodash.org.uk or at least equal, as many businesses do still prefer to trade under a co.uk name.
However, I get a constant stream of enquiries from people wanting to buy my single word or nodash.org.uks. They are looking to develop mini-sites or small businesses on very popular keywords; they don't want hyphens; and don't want to pay the generally eye-watering price for the co.uk version (if available). So I think the demand for (and hopefully the sales value of) good nodash.org.uks is very much on the rise.
If you add development into the mix then I would say the nodash.org.uk wins everytime over the with-dash.co.uk. Others of course will take a different view about the effect of hyphens. But I have seen over and over again that the hyphen versions don't rank as easily, so for now that colours my choice of the ideal domain.
Thanks for the nice comments from Lucky Luke and Justwondering and for the good rep. Glad you found my post useful.
Sorry you didn't like my comments crabfoot. Was only trying to pass on what I found worked for me, after some years of testing things out. Of course for some it will be nothing new. Others will take a different view based on their own experiences. But doesn't everybody sharing their opinions help us each gain a clearer view.
Silly girl - I like your comments a lot. I'm only objecting to Lucky Luke re-posting the whole thing as a quote, then saying nothing more than thanks.
Just wish you could read as well as you write ...
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I particularly focus in developing websites for customers in a niche where my customers generally are happier with with-dash.co.uk rather than nodash.org.uk. So a slightly different experience to Cuialean.
Having said that, the more I think about it the more I'm warming to Cuialean's order of preference.
Having said that, the more I think about it the more I'm warming to Cuialean's order of preference.
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Fair point Crabfoot, I admit. Thanks for pointing that out and I have corrected my offending post.
May I suggest that in the future you perhaps consider a more tactful way of correcting what you may see as a fellow poster's error?
Cheers, Luke
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see next - error posting !
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Hi Vizzo,
Many thanks for you post and particularly, the part quoted above.
For me, a gentle pointing out of my error is all that I need
Kind regards, Luke
Lookit, I know what everybody is saying about being gentle, but there have been a few threads in the general forum reflecting many members' disillusionment about people making posts which are mere pleasantries, not contributions.
You don't see a lot of those posts, because they are usually made by people who work up to the point where they can put a URL in their sig, then try to advertise, then get banned - latest one I've noticed is ispy999, bet he lasts about 5 min.
Luke - thanks for taking the hint. I'm leaving all my posts up to try and advertise the message, even if it makes me look like an ingrate.
Vizzo, you are blessed for not having been here long enough to realise that I am pointing out a breach of forum etiquette - it is not in the rules, because it is sometimes appropriate (as it is in this case, without the quote).
And just to summarise, so I'm making a real contribution (I hope) -
Opinion has been generally expressed in the past that non-hyphenated domains perform better than hyphenated domains, and that org.uk domains can perform just as well as co.uk if SEO is adequately applied. Some knowledgeable people have stated that the hyphen should not make a significant difference to SEO.
The only real published research was done a while back by Edwin. I don't remember what the results were, but because the "crawler world" is in continuous development, it is possible that the results are no longer true. I wouldn't put it past Google to muck about with their algorithms simply because Edwin published his findings.
In Cualean's experience, the order of actual site performance appears to be
nodash .co.uk
nodash .org.uk
with-dash .co.uk
with-dash .org.uk
Whereas RSK3000 values with-dash .co.uk above nodash .org.uk - there is no contradiction here, that is the general opinion in the market place for the undeveloped domain.
The obvious conclusions are that
1) the marketeers are concentrating on nodash .co.uk domains, because there are no questions associated with them, and they represent a guaranteed return, developed or not.
2) nodash .org.uk domains offer exceptional value to the developer, for resale or use as developed sites, but will not realise a good price if sold soley as an undeveloped domain.
3) nodash .org.uk, with-dash .co.uk, and with-dash .org.uk will all have a better resale value if sold as developed domains.
I'm working on a limited test myself, but it is hard enough work to build one site, let alone spin the material over six (to include a .com and with-dash ,com) so that a true comparison can be made. I've got a writer's block ... it doesn't help ... but it fits nicely between my ears ...
You don't see a lot of those posts, because they are usually made by people who work up to the point where they can put a URL in their sig, then try to advertise, then get banned - latest one I've noticed is ispy999, bet he lasts about 5 min.
Luke - thanks for taking the hint. I'm leaving all my posts up to try and advertise the message, even if it makes me look like an ingrate.
Vizzo, you are blessed for not having been here long enough to realise that I am pointing out a breach of forum etiquette - it is not in the rules, because it is sometimes appropriate (as it is in this case, without the quote).
And just to summarise, so I'm making a real contribution (I hope) -
Opinion has been generally expressed in the past that non-hyphenated domains perform better than hyphenated domains, and that org.uk domains can perform just as well as co.uk if SEO is adequately applied. Some knowledgeable people have stated that the hyphen should not make a significant difference to SEO.
The only real published research was done a while back by Edwin. I don't remember what the results were, but because the "crawler world" is in continuous development, it is possible that the results are no longer true. I wouldn't put it past Google to muck about with their algorithms simply because Edwin published his findings.
In Cualean's experience, the order of actual site performance appears to be
nodash .co.uk
nodash .org.uk
with-dash .co.uk
with-dash .org.uk
Whereas RSK3000 values with-dash .co.uk above nodash .org.uk - there is no contradiction here, that is the general opinion in the market place for the undeveloped domain.
The obvious conclusions are that
1) the marketeers are concentrating on nodash .co.uk domains, because there are no questions associated with them, and they represent a guaranteed return, developed or not.
2) nodash .org.uk domains offer exceptional value to the developer, for resale or use as developed sites, but will not realise a good price if sold soley as an undeveloped domain.
3) nodash .org.uk, with-dash .co.uk, and with-dash .org.uk will all have a better resale value if sold as developed domains.
I'm working on a limited test myself, but it is hard enough work to build one site, let alone spin the material over six (to include a .com and with-dash ,com) so that a true comparison can be made. I've got a writer's block ... it doesn't help ... but it fits nicely between my ears ...
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Whoops! 
Sorry crabfoot, I see now I completely misread your message in my rush to post before I dashed out for the evening. Silly me indeed!
I agree completely with your conclusions. That's exactly how I see it too. Apart from perhaps the second part of No 2:
This is true for more run-of-the-mill names, but I've found really good org.uks can command quite nice prices, though obviously not in the same street as their co.uk counterparts. Enough however to make premium keyword org.uks worthwhile investments, even without development.
I've also found premium.org.uks easier to sell than many of my niche nodash.co.uks, even though the latter have reasonable search popularity (say more than 5000 exacts) and are generic, commercial terms.
I do wonder what would have happened if I had concentrated more on with-dash.co.uks, rather than nodash.org.uks, as my strategy for obtaining highly searched key phrases. Would I now be seeing just as much demand from domain buyers for them as I get for the org.uks - or maybe more! Vizzo obviously finds that to be the case.
As you say crabfoot, it is just so difficult to gain an accurate picture of these things without massive investment in time and money to test it all out. Think it's best not to worry about it too much and just get on with developing (or selling) the names we have.
Sorry crabfoot, I see now I completely misread your message in my rush to post before I dashed out for the evening. Silly me indeed!I agree completely with your conclusions. That's exactly how I see it too. Apart from perhaps the second part of No 2:
This is true for more run-of-the-mill names, but I've found really good org.uks can command quite nice prices, though obviously not in the same street as their co.uk counterparts. Enough however to make premium keyword org.uks worthwhile investments, even without development.
I've also found premium.org.uks easier to sell than many of my niche nodash.co.uks, even though the latter have reasonable search popularity (say more than 5000 exacts) and are generic, commercial terms.
I do wonder what would have happened if I had concentrated more on with-dash.co.uks, rather than nodash.org.uks, as my strategy for obtaining highly searched key phrases. Would I now be seeing just as much demand from domain buyers for them as I get for the org.uks - or maybe more! Vizzo obviously finds that to be the case.
As you say crabfoot, it is just so difficult to gain an accurate picture of these things without massive investment in time and money to test it all out. Think it's best not to worry about it too much and just get on with developing (or selling) the names we have.
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The only problem with .org.uk s is this. What happens if the rules around what you can use .org.uks for changes (tightened up)? What if they started to say that these domains were for noncommercial use only. All they would need to do is prosecute a few of the worst offenders and then it would be 'game over'. Not likely to happen soon, but................
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That's a good point, and well made. .me.uk domains are 50x more problematic, because they're not "open SLDs" as defined in Nominet's T&C of registration, and come with a lot more rules. It's far more likely (still impossible to say how strongly, or when) Nominet will revisit .me.uk and make sure the rules apply to it rather than .org.uk since for the latter they say
For reference, .co.uk and .org.uk are the two Open SLDs. All other extensions Nominet refers to as "Closed SLDs" and those are subject to more restrictions (there is also no such "will take no action" promise with respect to Closed SLDs, of which .me.uk is one).
http://www.nominet.org.uk/registrants/aboutdomainnames/rules/
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I agree with Edwin and RSK 3000. The possibility of Nominet tightening the rules in future is the obvious downside to org.uks. I think it's very unlikely due to the major hassle they would have enforcing the change. Hate to imagine the angry mob that Nominet would face if they tried to take back org.uks from the many established businesses already using them. Presumably they would have to limit the changes to new ventures. Even that would be a nightmare. They would have lots of extra work dealing with disputes over which new sites qualify for org.uks and which are too commercial. But you never know - stranger things have happened!
If I were purely looking at domain investment (no development), I would be careful about investing in large numbers of org.uks. Especially now top premium org.uks are not so cheaply available. I'm no kind of sales (wo)man so that side of things doesn't really appeal. For me development brings in the main income. While I do sell batches of surplus names now and then, my main focus is on making use of the domains myself. I become my own enduser in effect. I farm out a lot of the work so I can maintain a lot of sites easily, and this strategy has worked out well for me.
As the 'end user' I'm quite happy to make hay while the sun shines on my org.uks! The exact match benefit of the org.uks makes the names rank quickly and relatively easily for highly searched terms. It makes beating the (often high) competition for these popular keywords, quite possible, without excessive investment in SEO etc. This shortcut to the top (or near the top) is their prime advantage.
I'm aware that one day the clouds could part, and the almighty Nominet could appear, hurling down a few thunderbolts, and commanding "thou shalt not use org.uks for commercial businesses or thou shalt be struck down dead".
For a pure domain investor this would suck somewhat, but if, like me, you concentrate on developing your names to make money now, then I don't think it need be any great concern. Particularly so if you have a varied portfolio with only a proportion of your investment in org.uks.
I tend to have undeveloped co.uk names in the same niches as my org.uks. So, in the very unlikely event of Nominet forcing existing businesses to give up org.uks, I could port the sites (at least the best ones) over to new co.uk names. I've actually done this already a couple of times with only a temporary loss of rank and traffic. Both were soon regained, and the renamed sites went on to surpass their previous rank and traffic levels.
Obviously it would not be a light undertaking to change lots of sites to new domains. If done carefully though (maintaining site structure, back links etc.) it would be worthwhile for the main money-earning sites, should Nominet ever make this necessary. The defunct, exact match, org.uks would still have served their purpose in getting the site ranked quickly and bringing in income fast. Once the org.uk has given your site the 'step-up' it needs, and you have an established site with plenty of good back links, then having an exact match domain name becomes much less important.
I think if org.uks are used like this then there are few downsides to them and plenty of advantages. If you are looking purely to invest in domains and have no interest in development then I agree co.uk (even hyphenated ones) are the safer route. Although for me it just so happens that my undeveloped org.uk sales are higher than the co.uk sales, but that's probably just a fluke!
I totally agree with Edwin re me.uks and avoid them completely. Sorry for another long post. I don't have time to post here often so when I do I tend to go on a bit!:smile:
If I were purely looking at domain investment (no development), I would be careful about investing in large numbers of org.uks. Especially now top premium org.uks are not so cheaply available. I'm no kind of sales (wo)man so that side of things doesn't really appeal. For me development brings in the main income. While I do sell batches of surplus names now and then, my main focus is on making use of the domains myself. I become my own enduser in effect. I farm out a lot of the work so I can maintain a lot of sites easily, and this strategy has worked out well for me.
As the 'end user' I'm quite happy to make hay while the sun shines on my org.uks! The exact match benefit of the org.uks makes the names rank quickly and relatively easily for highly searched terms. It makes beating the (often high) competition for these popular keywords, quite possible, without excessive investment in SEO etc. This shortcut to the top (or near the top) is their prime advantage.
I'm aware that one day the clouds could part, and the almighty Nominet could appear, hurling down a few thunderbolts, and commanding "thou shalt not use org.uks for commercial businesses or thou shalt be struck down dead".
For a pure domain investor this would suck somewhat, but if, like me, you concentrate on developing your names to make money now, then I don't think it need be any great concern. Particularly so if you have a varied portfolio with only a proportion of your investment in org.uks.
I tend to have undeveloped co.uk names in the same niches as my org.uks. So, in the very unlikely event of Nominet forcing existing businesses to give up org.uks, I could port the sites (at least the best ones) over to new co.uk names. I've actually done this already a couple of times with only a temporary loss of rank and traffic. Both were soon regained, and the renamed sites went on to surpass their previous rank and traffic levels.
Obviously it would not be a light undertaking to change lots of sites to new domains. If done carefully though (maintaining site structure, back links etc.) it would be worthwhile for the main money-earning sites, should Nominet ever make this necessary. The defunct, exact match, org.uks would still have served their purpose in getting the site ranked quickly and bringing in income fast. Once the org.uk has given your site the 'step-up' it needs, and you have an established site with plenty of good back links, then having an exact match domain name becomes much less important.
I think if org.uks are used like this then there are few downsides to them and plenty of advantages. If you are looking purely to invest in domains and have no interest in development then I agree co.uk (even hyphenated ones) are the safer route. Although for me it just so happens that my undeveloped org.uk sales are higher than the co.uk sales, but that's probably just a fluke!
I totally agree with Edwin re me.uks and avoid them completely. Sorry for another long post. I don't have time to post here often so when I do I tend to go on a bit!:smile:
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Some good points made here...
I think you might aswell disregard what a search engine may or may not do, as really there are too many variables to have a fair test. Looking at it from a human perspective is easier though. Say you visit a site once, your not on your own computer so no bookmarking, its not a particularly generic term but has some relevance to the subject of the site... let's take acorndomains.co.uk as an example.
The main focus of your memory is going to be the name rather than the extension. If a dash was used in a place where (as mentioned) it's grammatically correct or makes the word/s easier to understand, you would likely remember it. Likewise if there was consistancy, say 3 words in a domain name and ALL are seperated by a dash (nuts-about-domains.co.uk) then you are likely to remember that. However, when you start putting a dash in to seperate some words and not others (white-goldring) you are starting to make things difficult. So from a personal perspective, dashes can be fine or they can be a big drawback, depending on how you use them. For example I have a 3 letter domain seperated by dashes... however I feel this is fine as it is consistant and because those 3 letters are an abbreviation, the letters with dashes get good exacts on their own.
Anyway back to our example... the chances are you are less likely to have memorised the extension aswell as the domain, and often people guess at it. .com and .co.uk are obvious favourites, so for that reason I would rank
.co.uk (no dashes) as favourite
.co.uk (relevant dashes)
.org.uk (no dashes)
.org.uk (relevant dashes)
As mentioned this is just from a human perspective rather than a search engines, there are too many variables to have a fair test SEO wise, and the algorithms change so it's by the by anyway. Plus if you have a domain that is PMO (people's memory optimization - copyrighted by me as of now!) friendly, the traffic they bring will raise your search rank anyway.
Sorry if I went off on tangents or this doesn't make sense I struggle to concentrate for more than a few minutes at a time
I think you might aswell disregard what a search engine may or may not do, as really there are too many variables to have a fair test. Looking at it from a human perspective is easier though. Say you visit a site once, your not on your own computer so no bookmarking, its not a particularly generic term but has some relevance to the subject of the site... let's take acorndomains.co.uk as an example.
The main focus of your memory is going to be the name rather than the extension. If a dash was used in a place where (as mentioned) it's grammatically correct or makes the word/s easier to understand, you would likely remember it. Likewise if there was consistancy, say 3 words in a domain name and ALL are seperated by a dash (nuts-about-domains.co.uk) then you are likely to remember that. However, when you start putting a dash in to seperate some words and not others (white-goldring) you are starting to make things difficult. So from a personal perspective, dashes can be fine or they can be a big drawback, depending on how you use them. For example I have a 3 letter domain seperated by dashes... however I feel this is fine as it is consistant and because those 3 letters are an abbreviation, the letters with dashes get good exacts on their own.
Anyway back to our example... the chances are you are less likely to have memorised the extension aswell as the domain, and often people guess at it. .com and .co.uk are obvious favourites, so for that reason I would rank
.co.uk (no dashes) as favourite
.co.uk (relevant dashes)
.org.uk (no dashes)
.org.uk (relevant dashes)
As mentioned this is just from a human perspective rather than a search engines, there are too many variables to have a fair test SEO wise, and the algorithms change so it's by the by anyway. Plus if you have a domain that is PMO (people's memory optimization - copyrighted by me as of now!) friendly, the traffic they bring will raise your search rank anyway.
Sorry if I went off on tangents or this doesn't make sense I struggle to concentrate for more than a few minutes at a time
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