.co.uk bought, then .uk registered

[cm1975]

I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts were on buying a .co.uk domain from Sedo where the .uk rights had not been exercised, for the registrant to then register the domain, after buy it now.

I know there has been some discussion before, but wondered if anyone has experience of this specifically with Sedo?

The whois on a .uk domain clearly states that the right of registration is with the .co.uk domain, rather the registrant of the co.uk domain.

 

[woopwoop]

Personally I wouldn't risk it unless the seller confirmed it in the comments thread. Then at least the funds would be held in escrow and you have a claim with Sedo.

Personally the way I see it is that if a buyer doesn't bring it up and buys the .co.uk, then they don't have a right to the .uk as part of the deal

I rationalize this by saying its the the same as winning a domain auction for a domain and then expecting the website (or even the active email accounts) attached to the domain just because they have a relationship at the time of sale.

In any case why risk it? Just get their confirmation if possible or make your offer with the comment "offered only for the domain with the .uk right"

 

[ian]

I suspect it is a tactic some are using to retain a potentially lucrative domain of the future (well, maybe not!). I'd not be happy about it, but then Sedo doesn't allow such stipulations so there is always that risk.

 

[jasman]

I think if this has already happened you have little recourse, as presumably you agreed to buy the .co.uk and the .uk rights weren't mentioned. Many sellers would bundle the rights with the .co.uk domain, but the .uk (and therefore the rights to it) is a separate asset so I would not automatically expect it. So checking should be part of the buyer's due diligence. However I believe at this early stage in the .uk lifecycle, a reputable seller would be open about what is being sold before money changes hands.

By now Sedo should have incorporated functionality into their system to indicate whether each .co.uk comes with .uk rights. Denys was on the ball very quickly after .uk launch updating Domainlore but Sedo have become complacent. Until they alter their system to clarify this issue, it would be best before you make payment to ask the Sedo representative to check with the seller and confirm that the .uk rights are to be given with the .co.uk.

 

[cm1975]

Unfortunately, when you are buying it now on Sedo, there is no place to say that you are insisting on the rights to the .uk domain.

The rights to the .uk domain are with the .co.uk domain name, not with the registrant. So if I have bought the .co.uk domain, then I have the rights to the .uk domain.

If you buy a car, then the car has the rights to the wheels, so you'd expect the car to have wheels when you take delivery.

 

[woopwoop]

I agree about if the wheels are taken off it's not the same car, but in couk and uk, it's a little different...

You get the car you bid on (and that was being advertised) you just don't get the other car that was friends with the first car and that neither the buyer or the seller addressed during the purchase.

I think there is a level of deception on both sides if neither party brings it up and hides their intention.

I just think from a buyer point of view you need to ask, I doubt that the price will suddenly raise and if it does you know you just saved yourself from being deceived!

 

[cm1975]

I think if this has already happened you have little recourse, as presumably you agreed to buy the .co.uk and the .uk rights weren't mentioned. Many sellers would bundle the rights with the .co.uk domain, but the .uk (and therefore the rights to it) is a separate asset so I would not automatically expect it. So checking should be part of the buyer's due diligence. However I believe at this early stage in the .uk lifecycle, a reputable seller would be open about what is being sold before money changes hands.

The .uk is not a separate asset, as the rights remain with the .co.uk domain, not the registrant.

If this is not resolved, then since the seller is UK based, then it would be interesting to see if I was covered by distance selling regulations, whereby I would have 7 days to reject the goods.

I have yet to complete the registration, so have not taken delivery of the goods and the funds are still in escrow. I've also paid by Paypal, so there should in theory be another level at which I can get my money back.

 

[cm1975]

I just think from a buyer point of view you need to ask, I doubt that the price will suddenly raise and if it does you know you just saved yourself from being deceived!

In most situations, I would ask and the recent sales I have made, I have been clear on what is or is not included. On Sedo there is no mechanism to do this when doing a buy it now.

As the seller is a holder of a large portfolio of .co.uk domains, I didn't imagine they would take this course of action.

 

[cm1975]

Just pick up the phone and speak to a broker at Sedo. Explain what you're looking for and they'll contact the seller to seek the assurances that you're after.

020 7067 2496

Thanks Sean. At the moment, I've replied in the transfer centre, as it's outwith office hours now anyway.

 

[woopwoop]

Oh - I didn't know you bought it and this happened.

If you think it was a fair price for both, I'd contact them to argue your point and ask for it or for a refund. Otherwise just name them to stop them from doing it to others.

Legally though, I don't see them having to give you the .uk

Saying that you could make a stronger legal argument for a refund. For a contract to be valid, there has to be a "meeting of the minds". You could argue they showed bad faith in not being forthcoming in using a small window of opportunity, to change what you believed you were receiving.

Added: if the money is still in escrow I think you may be able to make the point above as a good enough reason to hold the funds and dispute the deal .

 

[diablo]

If this is not resolved, then since the seller is UK based, then it would be interesting to see if I was covered by distance selling regulations, whereby I would have 7 days to reject the goods.

DSR do not cover business to business transactions.

I've also paid by Paypal, so there should in theory be another level at which I can get my money back.

Paypal's buyer protection doesn't cover non-physical goods either.

 

[diablo]

Oh - I didn't know you bought it and this happened.

This sort of thing has been flagged on numerous occasions and Sedo should have acted months ago to preempt it.

Sedo is the best example of a company being successful despite what they do rather than because of what they do. They are only still in business because of the lack of competition and the apathy of those who continue to list / park with them (myself included).

 

[devilsrefugee]

I would have thought unless stated or mentioned, the onus is on the buyer to due his due diligence on the deal.

 

[cm1975]

With respect, they're less than useless if you don't pick up the phone and this is too serious to leave to e-mail.

I know some will say it's your fault for not checking but personally I think the seller is a devious twat for doing what they've done.

Good luck and I hope you get the outcome you deserve

The seller is one of the most difficult portfolio holders to contact, as I have not had replies from them in the past, so it would have been difficult to clarify the position prior to the purchase. There have been plenty of posts on AD trying to find a way of contacting them!!

Sedo's sales mechanism does not allow for you to contact a buyer prior to a sale, so the fact I have tried to contact them via another path, should not matter.

They have waited until after the domain had sold and before the transfer initiated before exercising the .co.uk's right to the domain. Had they wanted to retain the domain, they should have registered it in the last 2 months.

 

[cm1975]

I would have thought unless stated or mentioned, the onus is on the buyer to due his due diligence on the deal.

You can only do due diligence if the person can be contacted.

I have perhaps been a little naive, but I am in a position that many others could have been in!

I have at least checked the .UK prior to completing the transfer.

 

[cm1975]

I wonder how contract law would view it. You could argue that you become the registrant at the point where they accept your offer and that would mean they have no authority to register the .uk?

Can you name the seller?

Once I offer to buy the domain, I am in a contract with Sedo to buy the domain, so I would assume that since the seller has opted to sell on a buy it now basis, rather than an offers basis, then the contract is binding on them at that point. At that stage the rights to the domain are with the .co.uk and not the registrant themselves.

Once I know the position of both the seller and Sedo, then I will happily name the seller, as it's a case of buyer beware.

 

[Retired_Member38]

The seller is one of the most difficult portfolio holders to contact, as I have not had replies from them in the past, so it would have been difficult to clarify the position prior to the purchase. There have been plenty of posts on AD trying to find a way of contacting them!!

Sedo's sales mechanism does not allow for you to contact a buyer prior to a sale, so the fact I have tried to contact them via another path, should not matter.

They have waited until after the domain had sold and before the transfer initiated before exercising the .co.uk's right to the domain. Had they wanted to retain the domain, they should have registered it in the last 2 months.

None of these things matter. You've paid for a .co.uk and thats exactly what you're going to receive.

You can't really say he should have registered it in the last 2 months... it was completely his choice to register it or not.

Its easy to say with hindsight but its rather foolish to just buy a .co.uk without clarifying what happens with the .uk. If you couldn't reach the seller, you could have asked Sedo to speak to him or you weren't going to continue. At a high enough price, this is definitely something one of their brokers could and would have done.

I do think whats happened here is a little scummy... but its all perfectly above board as far as the legal aspect of it goes.

 

[diablo]

Had they wanted to retain the domain, they should have registered it in the last 2 months.

No portfolio holder is going to do that.

From what you have said, their plan was to exploit a loophole that allows them to retain the .uk after selling the .co.uk, but before the transfer is made.

Sedo have made this loophole readily available and Nominet are also culpable because of the complete lack of awareness of .uk outside of the domaining industry. At least you are aware that you have been naive. Many buyers will be completely unaware that the rights to .uk have been lost during the trandsaction.

I think you should name them. Until you do, the cloud of suspicion hangs over all UK portfolio holders.

 

[spiderspider]

None of these things matter. You've paid for a .co.uk and thats exactly what you're going to receive.

Not quite.

He paid for a .co.uk that still had the rights to the .uk
Something that a buyer can easierly check themselves, to see if the seller has exercised this right yet.
If rights have not been exercised prior to sale (as is this case), then at the time of the sale, the domain had the rights.

Its like buying a crate of beer, and just as you walk out the door, the Tesco security takes 3 cans off you 'as he can'.

 

[Retired_Member38]

Not quite.

He paid for a .co.uk that still had the rights to the .uk
Something that a buyer can easierly check themselves, to see if the seller has exercised this right yet.
If rights have not been exercised prior to sale (as is this case), then at the time of the sale, the domain had the rights.

Its like buying a crate of beer, and just as you walk out the door, the Tesco security takes 3 cans off you 'as he can'.

Your tesco comparison is just silly.


He paid for a .co.uk domain, he got one. Its really that simple. If the domain still had rights to .uk when he received it, he could have registered it. If he agreed before hand that it was coming with .uk rights then its a whole different story.

Until the domain transferred it was the sellers to do what he wanted with, which includes exercising his .uk rights.

Scummy but perfectly legal.

I"m guessing the domain was £xxx so what are you going to do... hire a solicitor? If you don't want one half of a pair it'd be better just letting it drop than getting a solicitor chasing after the other half.