Corona please read very important

[Richard K]

What I'm saying is, people who have pneumonia, or lung cancer etc who need ventilators...and also contract CV, are all being classed as CV deaths. So did they die because of CV, or die with CV?

If the number of pneumonia deaths this year is substantially more than in previous years, and if the increase roughly equates to the number of them who died "with CV", then it's pretty obvious that they died because of it.

 

[BREWSTERS]

Why? Please spell out your alternative instead of an unqualified statement!

Why qualify "I'd like to see no lockdown" - what needs qualifying about that?

Everyone realizes it'll damage our economy, but it is not by design, it is by necessity. The Government have explained it this way, to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed.
You say it is by design, please can you expand why the Government are doing it by design? Back up what you are saying with some hard and proven facts!

To do so is to go too far off-topic. Suffice to say this 'pandemic' ticks so many boxes for those who want to see one world government that either this is done by design, or those groups can't believe how lucky they are that this has come along.

I really look forward to you answer on this question: What are the freedoms that we will never see again? Please list them, and provide your evidence!

Freedom of movement for one. Freedom to congregate will be another. There are no gillets jeune, no Hong Kong protests since this started...they won't be allowed to happen again after this. Police ability to detain if they 'suspect' anyone of carrying a disease...that's everyone by the way. These have been introduced, and history shows that once rules and laws are put in place they are rarely rolled back.

Please answer your own question, you seem to know something we don't? Some proven data from you would be nice to have here.

You want 'proven data' - about something in the future? LOL.

Common sense and history shows that increased poverty leads to poorer health.

You end these questions with "These things are certain". Please back it up with the facts.

See previous answer.



BTW, I'm not a dancing bear...

Asking for facts, when you're happy to accept opinion and guesswork so long as it suits yours, or it comes from sources that you must think are beyond reproach (governments...they're trustworthy aren't they!) isn't a level playing field is it.

What I put are my opinions, and I'm entitled to do so as is everyone else. They are not based on nothing, but to go into that is not for this topic.

All I want is for people to become open to the possibility that things are not always (rarely) as they seem.

And scale has nothing to do with it...absolutely nothing is 'too big...they wouldn't get away with it'.

 

[websaway]

What I'm saying is, people who have pneumonia, or lung cancer etc who need ventilators...and also contract CV, are all being classed as CV deaths. So did they die because of CV, or die with CV? Because they are all being classed as CV deaths.

I think if you catch the virus and it leads to premature death then it's that that kills you. Nobody is pretending that it's not mostly the vulnerable that it kills.

 

[SiusaidhSiusaidh is verified member.]

Covid-19 precipitates pneumonia.

It's not like they were going to die of pneumonia at that time if they hadn't caught the virus.

Best thing is to ask the doctors and consultants on the front line what they think.

This is a worldwide emergency, Brewsters, and you seem to be making out that it's almost nothing really, because these were just people who died anyway.

That is, I would suggest, a minority view. Ask the healthcare staff in Italy what they think. Ask our own staff. I just don't think they would agree with you.

In science we deal with hypotheses, and so there is an honourable tradition of holding a minority view.

Personally, I am more persuaded by the majority view, not because it's the majority view but because I think the evidence massively suggests to me that hundreds of thousands of people are dying OF Covid-19. Seems like most healthcare professionals, most experts, most governments, agree with that conclusion.

 

[websaway]

Brewster I don't disagree with having a suspicion regarding this virus. I've watched a couple of james bond films. A terrorist organisation could easily send thousands of infected young men to major cities all over the globe to infect others with a new contagious disease but trying to discuss anything like that is simply subjective and not as we need now objective.

 

[SiusaidhSiusaidh is verified member.]

If the number of pneumonia deaths this year is substantially more than in previous years, and if the increase roughly equates to the number of them who died "with CV", then it's pretty obvious that they died because of it.

Quite. If these are all normal deaths... normal rates of people dying of pneumonia... how come we are going to need an extra 4000-bed hospital in London alone? how come Italian patients are on camp-beds in halls? how come, around the whole world, these huge challenges are being faced by healthcare staff?

You do realise huge challenges are being faced by healthcare staff around the world, beyond what they usually face?

That's just people dying normally?

 

[BREWSTERS]

If the number of pneumonia deaths this year is substantially more than in previous years, and if the increase roughly equates to the number of them who died "with CV", then it's pretty obvious that they died because of it.

Agreed, that would. We won't know those figures for a long time though. And the number would need to be very big to show an anomaly considering approx 1120 people over the age of 70 die every day in the UK (obviously not all pneumonia, and 44% of people who get pneumonia each year in the UK are under 70yo.

Does anyone have any figures for deaths by age in UK for CV yet?

 

[websaway]

Agreed, that would. We won't know those figures for a long time though. And the number would need to be very big to show an anomaly considering approx 1120 people over the age of 70 die every day in the UK (obviously not all pneumonia, and 44% of people who get pneumonia each year in the UK are under 70yo.

Does anyone have any figures for deaths by age in UK for CV yet?

Sorry but Flat Earth springs to mind. My Daughter in law is a nurse and has to wear protective clothing looking after someone with this bug, it's very worrying, why has she not had to wear protective clothing looking after others in the ward in the past. It is a palliative care ward..

 

[Richard K]

Does anyone have any figures for deaths by age in UK for CV yet?

I really don't know, but you're missing the woods for the trees.

Detailed figures are indispensable for in-depth analysis, but the broader picture that we're discussing here is obvious without it.

As mentioned in Siusaidh's most recent post, you only need look at the scenes from Italy.

 

[AdminAdmin is verified member.]

My colleague Mark went down unwell last Thursday.

He is 36, about 10.5 stone, never smoked, rarely drinks and often wanders into the office with a healthy conconction his wife has made him - generally vivid green in colour! So they are very healthy concsious.

His temp kept going up and last Sat they had to call the ambulance as he was really struggling to breathe. I think it was a terrifying experience for him. Anyway, paramedics arrived after 4 hours and carried out a few checks and told him it was safer to stay home and try and rest in bed.

It's now Weds and he is still very poorly. He can't even get to the bathroom without help. And they live in a small bungalow.

So take from that what you'd like.
I've certainly started taking things a lot more seriously that's for sure.

Does he suffer from asthma?

 

[BREWSTERS]

Brewster I don't disagree with having a suspicion regarding this virus. I've watched a couple of james bond films. A terrorist organisation could easily send thousands of infected young men to major cities all over the globe to infect others with a new contagious disease but trying to discuss anything like that is simply subjective and not as we need now objective.

That's nothing like what I think. I don't think that CV has been passed on purpose.

The symptoms are similar to flu. How many people displaying those symptoms are tested for flu...any? Who knows. How does anyone know the true extent of this? We are told worse case scenario, ie xxx number of deaths 'linked' to CV. And that's all.

 

[websaway]

That's nothing like what I think. I don't think that CV has been passed on purpose.

The symptoms are similar to flu. How many people displaying those symptoms are tested for flu...any? Who knows. How does anyone know the true extent of this? We are told worse case scenario, ie xxx number of deaths 'linked' to CV. And that's all.

Maybe I'm missing your point but if you are thinking straight then you would know that when a person dies the coroner will ask what they died of and that will not be flu but coronavirus. Coronavirus spreads from one person to another and we have not got any antibodies to protect ourselves against it. The young and healthy are at low risk because their immune system is strong but we have millions of old and unhealthy that are high risk and very vulnerable because their immune systems are fallible. I don't see which bit of this is disputable.

 

[BREWSTERS]

I really don't know, but you're missing the woods for the trees.

Detailed figures are indispensable for in-depth analysis, but the broader picture that we're discussing here is obvious without it.

As mentioned in Siusaidh's most recent post, you only need look at the scenes from Italy.

I can't speak for Italy, but for one UK region (I'm not saying which) that has 3 large general hospitals, and services 600k+ people - anyone with CV has been put on one ward, in one of the hospitals. The other two hospitals haven't got any CV cases. This is to reduce the possibility of contamination and makes perfect sense.

Now if you were to visit that one ward, what do you think you would see? Probably similar to Italy. Now consider the media's spin and sensationalism (shop workers before the panic buying spree started reported of newspaper photographers clearing shelves to take photos...and look what happened straight after).

@Siusaidh -

how come we are going to need an extra 4000-bed hospital in London alone?

Says who? The same sources who say we need to lockdown? London probably needs a 4000 bed hospital anyway.

 

[anthony]

Why qualify "I'd like to see no lockdown" - what needs qualifying about that?

To do so is to go too far off-topic. Suffice to say this 'pandemic' ticks so many boxes for those who want to see one world government that either this is done by design, or those groups can't believe how lucky they are that this has come along.

Freedom of movement for one. Freedom to congregate will be another. There are no gillets jeune, no Hong Kong protests since this started...they won't be allowed to happen again after this. Police ability to detain if they 'suspect' anyone of carrying a disease...that's everyone by the way. These have been introduced, and history shows that once rules and laws are put in place they are rarely rolled back.

You want 'proven data' - about something in the future? LOL.

Common sense and history shows that increased poverty leads to poorer health.

See previous answer.

BTW, I'm not a dancing bear...

Asking for facts, when you're happy to accept opinion and guesswork so long as it suits yours, or it comes from sources that you must think are beyond reproach (governments...they're trustworthy aren't they!) isn't a level playing field is it.

What I put are my opinions, and I'm entitled to do so as is everyone else. They are not based on nothing, but to go into that is not for this topic.

All I want is for people to become open to the possibility that things are not always (rarely) as they seem.

And scale has nothing to do with it...absolutely nothing is 'too big...they wouldn't get away with it'.

What a crock...!

Brewsters, you're full it pal, I'm surprised we're all continuing to respond to your 'opinions' to be honest. I for one am leaving you to it, as you clearly know much more than the rest of us on this!!

 

[BREWSTERS]

you would know that when a person dies the coroner will ask what they died of and that will not be flu but coronavirus. Coronavirus spreads from one person to another and we have not got any antibodies to protect ourselves against it. The young and healthy are at low risk because their immune system is strong but we have millions of old and unhealthy that are high risk and very vulnerable because their immune systems are fallible. I don't see which bit of this is disputable.

Going round in circles here...I must have put this about 3 times already - one last time.

A patient has stage 4 cancer...been struggling with it for years and they are in their last few days. They get a positive test for CV on Monday - on Thursday they pass away. This is counted as a CV death (notice they state 'xxx deaths linked to CV). Those are the numbers we get.

Here's an analogy; a 70yo man lives all his life in Manchester - he's on holiday in sunny Skegness for a week and on the fourth day he gets knocked over and dies. Would you expect a headline 'Skegness man dies after being knocked down'?

 

[BREWSTERS]

What a crock...!

Brewsters, you're full it pal,

Can you back that up with facts?

 

[super-whoissuper-whois is verified member.]

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ions-dies-after-contracting-covid-19-11963451

I despair the thoughts of someone who has his username in capitals.

 

[anthony]

Can you back that up with facts?

To do so is to go too far off-topic!!!

 

[websaway]

Going round in circles here...I must have put this about 3 times already - one last time.

A patient has stage 4 cancer...been struggling with it for years and they are in their last few days. They get a positive test for CV on Monday - on Thursday they pass away. This is counted as a CV death (notice they state 'xxx deaths linked to CV). Those are the numbers we get.

Here's an analogy; a 70yo man lives all his life in Manchester - he's on holiday in sunny Skegness for a week and on the fourth day he gets knocked over and dies. Would you expect a headline 'Skegness man dies after being knocked down'?

yes because CV killed him, can't see where the argument is .Your analogy is pointless and not worth further discussion. But we all seemed to be agreeing that if someone has CV prior to their death then that is what ultimately killed them and we are trying to protect the vulnerable in particular against this virus. End of.

 

[websaway]

Prince Charles has got the old CV as we affectionately refer to it. Wishing him well and hoping a full recovery. Hope his Mom hasn't got it.