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EGM.uk - Please sign this petition against Nominet's 50% price rise

Discussion in 'Nominet General Information' started by Whois-Search, Nov 28, 2015.

  1. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    I think I said may face ruin in the context that others may not. What would those companies possible claims be based on? Those companies likely registered domain names through registrars (even if the registrar was a controlled one) and not directly through Nominet, hence those registrars set the price. Furthermore those companies may have purchased domain names at unspecified retail prices from other Registrants who, in turn, registered those domain names with other registrars (some may have been caught by registrars also acting as drop catchers).
     
  2. Domain Forum

    Acorn Domains Elite Member

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    IWA Meetup
     
  3. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member

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    The same wholesale pricing as who?
     
  4. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    All Nominet *.uk registrars receive the same wholesale prices from Nominet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  5. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    legitimate expectation

    Suggest you go and see your Nominet lawyers and ask them to explain
    the overriding legal concept of "legitimate expectation" to you and the board.

    As explained previously Nominet have made it a requirement that the registrants,
    see a copy of the Terms & Conditions of Nominet and so form part of the transactional base.

    The past Nominet statements, not for profit status and all 20 years of Terms & Conditions to date
    have created a legitimate expectation that these policies would continue into the future.
    In reliance domain portfolio owners have maintained registrations as investments.

    These would now be rendered onerous investments to maintain by the proposed new policy on fees.

    This disappointment of legitimate expectations is so unfair as to be an abuse of power,
    and therefore the proposed policy is of questionable legality.

    Stephen
     
  6. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    not all have same net wholesale price!

    No some Registrars have received a refund via promotional rebates wholly prohibited
    against by the Nominet Articles of Association (see no 6).

    So making the domains cheaper to some chosen and specific registrars (members).

    Hoping that Nominet seek a whole 100% refund of those rebates,
    so as to act within their own rules and regulations and act within the law.

    Stephen
     
  7. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    Did you copy this from an email you'd received?

    Yes, I believe so.

    How have they created a "legitimate expectation" that the prices wouldn't change?

    Why, because the investment is no longer affordable to the investor before that investor had sold it? Why would Nominet be at fault for that? Who even knows the investor was ever going to realise their investment in their particular portfolio? Remember, unlike shares, domain names are not owned but are leased so domain names cannot be considered a one time investment of money to maintain.
     
  8. jasman United Kingdom

    jasman Active Member

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    David, when I and many others in this community voted for you, we placed our trust in you to represent our interests and fight our corner. For you to then turn around and side with the Nominet management against the interests of the community who voted you in, I think is a disgrace.
     
  9. looks United Kingdom

    looks Active Member

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    +1
     
  10. DomainAngel

    DomainAngel Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't take David's comments on this forum as anti domainer as I'm pretty certain there is a slow wink and a nod with every seemingly negative you may think you've read.
     
  11. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    I've spent a lot of time discussing the secondary market with people on the Board who aren't as aware of it as I am. You obviously can't be aware of what I contribute due to meeting content being mostly confidential, aside from communiques published.

    The idea that once one becomes a Board Member one works for ones own interest group above all else is absolutely wrong. Dickie Armor, a NED and employee of a Top 25 registrar (Freeparking.co.uk) isn't on the Board working predominantly for the interest of the top 25 registrars. I am not and cannot be there to work for anything other than the interest of the company ("Nominet") itself. I realise that many will have differing views of what is in the interest of the company!

    The Board has the right to set prices itself, having been given that power several years ago. As a result, in 2012 it was able to introduce the 1 year £3.50 wholesale price. By raising prices this year it hopes to ensure that the *.uk extensions are priced appropriately within the overall choice of extensions that registrars now sell (and will be selling), and to allow for more promotions. I don't intend to argue thoughts and theories about the success or failure of new gTLDs again here. Accept that this is the thinking of the company at this moment time. A proportion of the money will help towards rising costs related to enhanced policy work, perhaps customer service improvements and further infrastructure upgrades. Some will be to help guard against potential threats from cyber attacks, perhaps. Some will be invested, just as money is invested at the moment. Some may eventually be used for new developments (predominantly domain name centric and some less domain name centric projects).

    As regards us here being a community. I suppose we are to an extent but we are also competitors and rivals. Some here are also more successful for a variety of reasons than others. It depends how one measures success. There will be very profitable portfolio holders who will ride the price rise, perhaps bulk renewing their domain names for multiple years prior to the rise because they have the money to do it. Some others making decent revenue in comparison to the cost of retaining their portfolio might consider borrowing the money to afford bulk renewals prior to the price rise but others may not feel the need to do that. Some others likely have less profitable portfolios that nobody duped them into creating. For their own, yet to be known reasons, they decided those domain names were worth registering. The price increase may make them reconsider retaining some/much/all of what they have, but perhaps they should have been doing that anyway?

    I suspect of all those who've signed up to EGM.uk, a proportion won't know why they've signed. Are those making the most noise the ones who are going to feel the effects the greatest? Logically yes.

    I asked a drop catcher I know (member here) today on the phone, while we were talking about all sorts of things, if he was going to sign EGM.uk and he said he wasn't bothered because the price rise doesn't affect him. He also felt some of those with less profitable portfolios will potentially have to evaluate what they're doing but didn't see why it was a concern of anyone else. If those underperforming portfolio holders decide to drop anything that is actually desirable or profitable, surely other registants will come along and register those domain names for themselves. That doesn't seem communal spirit to me. Shouldn't those in the community rally round to prop up underperforming portfolio holders?

    I suspect some of the more successful portfolio holders may actually delight in seeing others they compete with being knocked out of the game because it'll mean more inventory for them to hoover up.

    Some on the Board are particularly sensitive to the potential effects the price rise may have on certain Registrants but they also don't believe it should hinder the company from raising their prices as it has chosen to do, believing that raising prices is currently in the best interest of the company.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
  12. bonusmedia

    bonusmedia Well-Known Member

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    You are suggesting having a monopoly on apples is fine because there is competition from oranges. This is a typical tactic from a company trying to protect their lucrative monopoly - a little like Bill Gates funding Apple.

    As for sitting on cash, perhaps you misunderstood. Of course their cash is 'invested'. The point is to invest in the activity of the business which should, if the company is basically competent, produce a better return than giving it to a broker to play with.

    If you can't make a better return on capital investing in the business than giving it to a fund, you may as well close down or become a fund.

    Unless of course you're operating a highly lucrative gravy train.

    The suggestion that millions of established sites can simply switch to .com if they don't like it is facetious, there is a massive base of customers who essentially have no choice but to pay up whatever they decide to charge.
     
  13. bonusmedia

    bonusmedia Well-Known Member

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    BTW the price rise will have a negligible effect on my business and I imagine a negligible effect on most non registrars. That's really not the point.

    Having seen some of the laughable guff Nominet has wasted their money on, I am aggrieved at the idea they can cream off millions more at will
     
  14. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    I find introducing analogies into discussions of domain name business rarely ever works and I don't consider yours to be a valid comparison of *.uk and .com. :) Apples and Oranges are materially different. The technical result of using either of these two domain names extensions is practically the same but the perception of the two, and the registrations within, can be subjectively very different (Geo aside).

    I wanted you and anyone else reading to realise that the money isn't simply sitting in an account gaining no interest or something else almost as silly. I am confident that the company will be able to make decisions about if and when to draw on the money invested so it can make other investments that might fit in with its core aims, and non-core aims. Until then I am aware that the investments funds have been doing well.

    I wasn't suggesting switching. The overall renewal rate is published so we should have an idea of the what isn't renewed. Registrants close down or rescind domain names constantly. Registrants also register new domain names. Nominet wish to ensure a large number continue to choose to make new registrations within *.uk because it knows that potential Registrants may have choices.
     
  15. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    Trying to answer your questions

    I will try and answer all the questions, not just pick and choose like some on this and the Nominet forum.

    Yes, on a request to a Professor of Law.

    Nearly 20 years of no price rise and the wording of not for profit and fees on a cost recovery basis, take all that together and a reasonable person would not expect a 50% increase.

    If anybody thought they would not have there .co.uk renewed do you think they would ever register one?

    IP is something you can invest in and has even less physical form a domain.

    Nominet has gladly taken the money for 20 years and has effectively said we don't need your money now, we are going down a different path.

    Look at lots of other areas were that happens, then compensation is paid to those that loose out.

    This could by the PPI that the banks have suffered with, strange things happen when you involve other regulatory authorities or the law, who have a different viewpoint than you do.

    Stephen
     
  16. jasman United Kingdom

    jasman Active Member

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    The Twitter feed says that members with more than 5% of the voting rights have signed the petition now. Does anyone have any update on what's happening now?
     
  17. Stephen United Kingdom

    Stephen Well-Known Member

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    Alex Bligh's blog

    A very strong item that Nominet should take into account,
    when considering what to do next.

    Although the Alex Bligh's Blog article does not support the EGM, many important and fundamental points are raised, which are worth looking into.

    http://blog.alex.org.uk/2015/12/11/on-nominets-price-rise/

    Indebted to Andrew as he originally posted this link on another forum.

    Stephen
     
  18. RobM

    RobM Retired Member

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    What a strange statement. If he is paying 50% more for his registrations then the price rise *does* affect him.... 50% of the previous registration price! If he doesn't register domains he is not a dropcatcher. I would either have to assume from this asinine statement that a) you made it up or b) the person you spoke to has no business sense. Sounds to me though a little like argumentum ad populum.
     
  19. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member

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    I think what the person David spoke to might have meant was something like this "Because I charge £50 per domain I catch, a 50% price rise doesn't make a meaningful difference to my huge profit margin."

    You're spot on when you point out that 50% is still 50%. Money is money, there's no two ways about it. So at the end of the day even a drop catcher will make "less than before" - but perhaps as in my example above they feel they can absorb the price rise without batting an eyelid because the profit margin is still over 90% on every catch.

    I'd have thought they're the least meaningfully representative group for exactly that reason - which other group of domain users is GUARANTEED to make a return of £30, £40, £50 for every domain they succeed in registering?

    (That's not to take anything away from drop catchers - it's a tough market that requires a lot of effort to stay on top of - but if we're talking purely in terms of costs, revenue and margins it's more predictable than any other line of business involving domains on a per-domain basis)
     
  20. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    Prefix "affect him" with any of "noticeably"/"significantly"/"materially" because he's not a significant portfolio holder, choosing to sell his domain names on within the initial registration period. He's also only making single year domain name registrations so will potentially only be affected to the tune of twenty five pence per new registration. Clearly he considers that insignificant and therefore hasn't decided to sign.
     
  21. RobM

    RobM Retired Member

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    Claiming that 'this doesn't make a noticeable difference to me' does *not* mean that there is no difference. Therefore it can't really be used as an example to everyone to insinuate there's no difference can it? He may well consider it 'insignificant' as, to some extent, I do *personally*. This doesn't mean that prices aren't going up by a ridiculously large percentage for no good reason. I no longer have thousands of domains but members here still do. To them I'm assuming a 50% rise in renewal fees is not 'insignificant'. To make a throwaway remark about something someone may have said on the phone is hardly addressing the issue or even relevant.
    Really we just need to know something very simple. What possible costs increase could there be at nominet when they already have millions available to justify a whopping 50% rise in registration fees? So far I haven't heard a sensible answer beyond 'our costs have gone up' which totally doesn't address the money available, what these 'costs' are, and the huge pay rises for board members. I don't actually expect we'll ever get an answer because this suits Nominet and we all know from past experience they do what's best for them and the top few registrars. The registrants come a very poor second.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015