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Corona please read very important

Discussion in 'The Bar' started by dougs, Mar 15, 2020.

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  1. Trauiner United Kingdom

    Trauiner Active Member

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    I should ignore you the minute you throw 'strawman' into the conversation as you know you're up against a dumb conversation when people starting throwing around terms like that.

    However, I said normally. Not every time. If we need statistics in here and facts on percentage of side effects and complications, why aren't you posting them instead of saying what I said is flawed. I'm sure you have some sort of logical fallacy like a strawman you can use for what you did there. "What you said is likely wrong and weakens the post but I'm not going to post anything that says otherwise" - It's like the people who comment about someone spelling incorrectly or using grammar incorrectly and then do it themselves in the sentence telling the person about it.
     
  2. Domain Forum

    Acorn Domains Elite Member

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    articles.co.uk
     
  3. Gill United Kingdom

    Gill Active Member

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    "Most vaccine adverse events are minor and temporary, such as a sore arm or mild fever. These can often be controlled by taking paracetamol after vaccination. More serious adverse events occur rarely (on the order of one per thousands to one per millions of doses), and some are so rare that risk cannot be accurately assessed."

    This is taken from the WHO's web site.
     
  4. newguy United Kingdom

    newguy Well-Known Member

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    'In general', not vaccinating is much more Russian Roulette than vaccinating is. I would be wary of leaping to have any rushed out vaccine for covid-19 because there would be no history to it, so I agree with you on that front that caution should be applied. Many vaccines though are proven safe and have observably saved many millions of lives. With those, it's not having it that can be a risk. It's truly tragic when there are averse reactions, but as you say the same can happen with medications.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  5. BREWSTERS United Kingdom

    BREWSTERS Well-Known Member

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    He also points out that Gates’s polio vaccination campaigns paralyzed 496,000 children in India between 2000 and 2017, causing his agency to be expelled from India and immediately lowering polio paralysis rates.

    Other disastrous effects of Gates’s vaccinations were the autoimmune and fertility disorders that 1,200 girls suffered and the death of seven of them. They belonged to a group of 23,000 vaccinated girls from remote villages in India.

    Among the resources used by Gates’s organization to enable the girls to be vaccinated were unethical practices such as pressuring girls to participate in the trial, intimidating parents, falsifying consent forms, and denying medical care to injured girls, according to the case now before the Indian Supreme Court, according to Kennedy. - from the article I linked to in my earlier post on the subject.

    Vaccines - if you believe in them, go ahead and have them - it's your choice. But to force everyone to have them is fascism at it's finest.

    If you've had them, you've nothing to worry about others having them surely?
     
  6. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    People soon got the hang of the umbrella.
    I do see your point though. Guy running the post office had a pair of rubber gloves on that were filthy, looked like gardening gloves, made me smile.
     
  7. Murray

    Murray Well-Known Member

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    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/gates-org-kicked-out-of-india/

    https://pib.gov.in/newsite/mbErel.aspx?relid=158277

    "Some media reports have suggested that all health related collaboration with the Gates Foundation with National Health Mission (NHM) has been stopped. This is inaccurate and misleading. BMGF continues to collaborate and support the Ministry of Health and Family Welfare"
     
  8. BREWSTERS United Kingdom

    BREWSTERS Well-Known Member

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    Snopes again?

    I’ll stick with Robert Kennedy Jnr thanks - that said I have little doubt that the Indian Supreme case will for some rea$on be dropped.
     
  9. Trauiner United Kingdom

    Trauiner Active Member

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    I can understand pulling on snopes but where is the evidence of this happening, or is it another passage of text you've copy/pasted without doing an ounce of research on?
     
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  10. newguy United Kingdom

    newguy Well-Known Member

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    But they do have offices in India, so objectively speaking they have not been kicked out. The source stating this isn't important if they are present in the country.

    Also, I feel that if you're going to spend a significant number of posts looking for an underbelly to the current situation (do these people really have coronavirus? the stats don't add up! our approach is wrong! wha'ts the motivation behind releasing a vaccine!" etc) or questioning the science, surely unsubstantiated comments from individuals should require more proof, not less. How come, when it's something you want to believe "Robert Kennedy jnr said so", or how many Youtube thumbs up something gets is somehow profoundly meaningful?

    I'm all for a healthy suspicion of government, and pushback where civil liberties are genuinely threatened, but not everything that happens in the world is the result of some kind of nefarious scheme. The lock down makes sense for now, there is a rationale to it. Developing a vaccine makes sense. We're in a truly difficult spot, and the constant push that it's not really happening how we perceive it, or that we should largely carry on as normal, or be inherently suspicious of efforts to develop a vaccine might not be the most helpful advice during a global pandemic.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  11. starbird United Kingdom

    starbird Active Member

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    And you believe the W.H.O who tweeted in January this virus doesn't spread human to human (nothing to do with China buying it off I'm sure). Like FIFA, like all large organisations, it is corrupt. None can be trusted. It's perfectly possible China bought the W.H.O off in order to level the playing field globally, don't think China would do that, think again. Put another way I'd believe anything from the W.H.O as much as I believe only 3.5k people died from the virus in China.

    China will eventually be an outcast once the dust settles from this, even allies like Russia will likely not be too friendly. What will happen is countries will start producing goods normally imported from China to restart their economies (and ensure supply). Trump is considering stopping US funding to the W.H.O.

    I'd say a vaccine will be available before the end of the year. I cannot see it being mandatory in the UK but be assured plenty will flock to get it and rest will basically be shielded by the majority.
     
  12. newguy United Kingdom

    newguy Well-Known Member

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    I think that's about right. If it's developed it should be an option, a choice. I understand why some would be wary of being at the front of the queue, whereas others in more at risks groups would probably be well advised to go for it.

    As for China, yes, these wet markets simply should not be happening. Aside from the cruelty that's on display, they are bringing caged animals together in combinations that make it akin to a scientific experiment. It's the perfect breeding ground for viruses to leap from one species to another, and then the rest of the world end up having to deal with the consequences.
     
  13. Trauiner United Kingdom

    Trauiner Active Member

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    That's one of the biggest issues for me. There is no hunt for evidence, just a hunt for anything that agrees with their thinking. "Don't quote snopes! That's embarrassing. However, this video has thousands of dislikes which shows you something meaningful."

    I've got no problem with someone having an opinion or thought that differs to mine, as that's a healthy discussion. It's the not digging into things to find information. I don't trust X because he goes against what I'm saying but I trust Y because he agrees with me" - That's dangerous.
     
  14. Trauiner United Kingdom

    Trauiner Active Member

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    That's not technically true and false information. You're taking the context out of that tweet which is vital.

    The wording was actually "Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission."

    That doesn't state the virus doesn't spread human to human. It states that preliminary investigations found no clear evidence of it happening. That's a massive difference to saying it doesn't spread human to human. It doesn't even remotely say it doesn't spread, "no clear evidence" doesn't mean no, it doesn't spread.
     
  15. BREWSTERS United Kingdom

    BREWSTERS Well-Known Member

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    And you question and research the validity of the MSM do you?

    I've been looking into vaccines for nearly 20 years. My eldest boy, who's 21, has severe autism and learning difficulties. He was diagnosed at 2yo which is very young to get a diagnosis (parents have to fight to get a diagnosis in many cases).

    Now, I don't believe that vaccines 'caused' his autism...I can't say they didn't contribute, but I don't blame them in his case. But...my ex and I started a charity about 12 years ago to provide events tailored for families of people with autism. She still runs it and it has grown over the years.

    Through that we met a lot of parents who state categorically that following the mmr vaccine, their child changed within hours.

    Dr Wakefield was vilified at the time for saying there was a connection. Since then the US gov has paid out tens or maybe now hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation to people damaged by the mmr shot. That doesn't get a lot of coverage in the MSM.
     
  16. BREWSTERS United Kingdom

    BREWSTERS Well-Known Member

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    I can say exactly the same for you.

    But in my case, I know what I've done to confirm my suspicions.

    Are you willing to state a 'fact' about covid-19? That way we can assess how much research you've put into verifying it?
     
  17. Murray

    Murray Well-Known Member

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    It has a link to a indian government site and I quoted from the Indian government?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  18. Trauiner United Kingdom

    Trauiner Active Member

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    I will dig into everything as much as I can possible to get to the best conclusion. I can't always go as deep as I would like because it gets to a point where obviously I'm not a doctor, so I can't verify if a single doctor is telling the truth on a matter for example. However, if you have a doctor saying something and virtually every other doctor in the world agrees with them, there's a high certainty that doctor isn't lying, making things up etc.

    I'm not going to even comment (in a discussion way) on the Dr Wakefield thing. It's public knowledge that his findings weren't replicable, false and misleading. His findings still haven't been replicated to this day. From when I looked into him about a year or so ago, it appears that him being barred from practising medicine in the UK, was a wise decision.

    The whole "US gov has paid out tens or maybe now hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation thing" and that meaning there's truth behind a link, is a full on conspiracy theory also. While these payments do happen, if you investigate why it's done, it makes perfect and reasonable sense. It sounds bad until you dig into it and understand the reason.

    Just agreeing to part ways and hand over money with no blame happens all the time. It's a common practise and there's not a conspiracy theory in those cases. It's simple maths or a simple decision, even if the outcome isn't what you were going for. A company getting sued that will cost them millions to defend (when they've done nothing wrong) is always going to be happy to just settle and walk away for £20,000 because it would cost them more than than to defend themselves.
     
  19. BREWSTERS United Kingdom

    BREWSTERS Well-Known Member

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    Do you not know that companies who make vaccines can't be sued? They are the only industry that can't. Governments protect them...but that doesn't stop them from being liable...it just means that the companies don't lose. Tax payers do. But not as much as the vaccine injured.

    And the governments accept the liability - and pay out. Not their money is it.

    No wonder pharmaceutical companies are some of the biggest sponsors of politicians.

    Any covid-19 fact you want to put forward for analysis?
     
  20. Trauiner United Kingdom

    Trauiner Active Member

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    Well, they can be sued, just not directly for a vaccine injury. If you ask me, it makes sense regardless but I can understand why people wouldn't agree with that.

    I'm not sure why you're pushing on me to provide you a covid-19 fact for analysis when you've consistently copy/pasted dangerous information which don't have any evidence behind them and promoted people that in their industry and field are publicly ridiculed and called out as being liars.

    You are the type of person that will always be impossible to please as you have an underlying conspiracy theory to feed. If I post a link to a government site, you'll say the government are in on it, If I post 1,000 links from different professionals around the world all saying X is a fact, you'll always say well this 1 doctor says X is wrong and you only believe what that one person says. Even if they've been caught lying and discredited as a Dr.

    Not sure what sort of facts you would be looking for anyway, or why you've searching for one from me. You've not posted any facts in this thread so far apart from full-on conspiracy theories, from what I can remember. I look at information thrown at me in discussions etc and then dig into them to see if it's likely true/false. I don't normally go around directly pushing out facts as gospel, I discuss what other people are saying.
     
  21. BREWSTERS United Kingdom

    BREWSTERS Well-Known Member

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    So like I said...they can't be sued for vaccine injury.

    That makes sense to you does it? How about food? I've worked in various areas of the food industry for most of my working life. If a company that I worked for produced a food product that made people ill, should we be protected by government? Isn't food a vital service...more so than vaccines.

    Because you're purporting that I haven't done any research into the things I post. I'd like to know how much research you put into what you believe, and that can only be done by you having the cohones to say what you believe. I do, and I know I'll get ridiculed for it by some people. But that is what having the courage of one's convictions is. Anyone can say what they like when they know that the popular belief backs them up. Emperor's new clothes.


    How is that any different from yourself?

    You bandy about 'conspiracy theory' and that's just lazy.

    From the beginning of all this, I said that it is a move by those who want a one world government. Everything about it is tailor made for their ends. Since saying that, various people (usual suspects...Bill Gates, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Henry Kissenger…) have all called for a world government. And there'll be many more to come. There are conspiracies. They're not all theories.

    I've not posted any facts? I'll let anyone else who reads this decide whether I have or not...it's not for you to say...and it's definitely not a fact!
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
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