EU Referendum

[websaway]

The rhetoric from most politicians on both sides say it's better to stay in the EU to change it from within. Similar rhetoric to that of Labour MP's when they have to justify entering the unelected house of Lords. Lord Prescott is a prime example. Nothing to do with the gravy train then.

 

[EdwinEdwin is verified member.]

This referendum is bigger than that. Farage has opened a can of worms where the political elite , not just the Eton set are under scrutiny by the grass root population and Corbyn is loving it.

How do you see the UK evolving after a Leave vote? Economically? Politically? Societally? What happens at the 2020 General Election and beyond? And what about between now and 2016 with a different group of Conservatives at the wheel (Johnson, Gove and Duncan-Smith)

(I'm having trouble visualising the above beyond the obvious switch from David Cameron to Boris Johnson and his Leave camp pals in very short order which I've already posted about. Plus I believe the economic doom and gloom projections, which affects how I think about everything else...)

 

[websaway]

Has anyone ever worked out what a knighthood is worth to a British Billionaire ?
It probably doesn't matter though does it , it seems corruption is now allowable because so many people are tied up in it.
I think the UK is in for a bumpy political ride.
Hypothetically speaking if someone marries an MP gets a job doing charity work at £xxx,xxx per annum and effectively has a voice in the house of commons or the Lords, it's OK because it's a CHARITY doesn't matter that someone might be creaming of 1.3 million dollars off the top as a salary.
I think we've moved a long way on from cash for questions.
Just a thought. When someone breaks their neck to get 3,000 children into the UK, I wonder if there is an underlying agenda, silly me, I'm probably just being cynical.

 

[websaway]

How do you see the UK evolving after a Leave vote? Economically? Politically? Societally? What happens at the 2020 General Election and beyond? And what about between now and 2016 with a different group of Conservatives at the wheel (Johnson, Gove and Duncan-Smith)

(I'm having trouble visualising the above beyond the obvious switch from David Cameron to Boris Johnson and his Leave camp pals in very short order which I've already posted about. Plus I believe the economic doom and gloom projections, which affects how I think about everything else...)

Have you not considered with such a small majority the government could be brought down. Corbyn is a canny operator, I for one have underestimated his potential. He can not be accused of championing the remain campaign, he is guarded on his reasons for backing it, in the post mortem stages he will easily be able to defend his position. Cameron on the other hand is a dead duck he has lied, since last November and will not be able to retain credibility . I have been a capitalist most of my adult life, I converted when I learned the objectives of the trade unions and it's alignment to marxism but the current situation makes me sick to the stomach. We have I'm afraid lost our true politics, it was the blair government with it's spin doctors that created a situation where anything goes, no shame, no ultimate accountability, and it's so incestuous the public really don't know what's going on.

 

[EdwinEdwin is verified member.]

I think it would be the kiss of death to Labour for them to collaborate on causing the fall of the government when all but a handful of their MPs were effectively complicit in the referendum "failure" (I assume the no confidence vote would have to be worded to imply that a Leave vote result represented grave failure).

Plus why would the SNP, Lib Dems etc vote for No Confidence when 100% of their number were for Remain?

There is a 300+ MP margin in the Remain camp - there's no way that's going to erode if a N.C. vote were called for.

And who would call the N.C. vote in the first place with all the parties together on the "losing" side?

 

[websaway]

I think it would be the kiss of death to Labour for them to collaborate on causing the fall of the government when all but a handful of their MPs were effectively complicit in the referendum "failure" (I assume the no confidence vote would have to be worded to imply that a Leave vote result represented grave failure).

Plus why would the SNP, Lib Dems etc vote for No Confidence when 100% of their number were for Remain?

There is a 300+ MP margin in the Remain camp - there's no way that's going to erode if a N.C. vote were called for.

And who would call the N.C. vote in the first place with all the parties together on the "losing" side?

Well you can apply statistics but wounds are not going to heal and the people are revolting. The chilcot report will add oil to the fire.
Why do you think so many people are actually standing up to the establishment in this referendum.

 

[AlistairM]

One of the reasons I'm for voting leave is because I think it could shake up politics over here dramatically. The politicians might finally get it into their heads that it is in fact the British people that still have control, and they're fed up with seeing this country going to the dogs with issues like chavs living off the tax payer and criminals being giving too lenient prison sentences and sort out people like some of these idiots currently in France who drag this country's reputation through the dirt once again. Brexit could be the start to getting politicians to actually listen to what decent British people really want.

 

[EdwinEdwin is verified member.]

One of the reasons I'm for voting leave is because I think it could shake up politics over here dramatically. The politicians might finally get it into their heads that it is in fact the British people that still have control, and they're fed up with seeing this country going to the dogs with issues like chavs living off the tax payer and criminals being giving too lenient prison sentences and sort out people like some of these idiots currently in France who drag this country's reputation through the dirt once again. Brexit could be the start to getting politicians to actually listen to what decent British people really want.

So in political terms, you'd favour a fairly harsh swing to the right? Is that a fair assessment?

If so, are the Tory party in any shape to provide it?

 

[AlistairM]

I'd just like somebody to take control that has pride in this country and morals to match. People can say what they like about Nigel Farage but nobody can say he doesn't stick to what he believes. I think the only thing I don't really agree with him on is fracking.

I don't know about the Torys. Can't really stand Cameron and definitely can't stand Osborne, right. Can't say I'd really like to see Boris in charge, don't know too much on Michael Gove, maybe Jacob Rees Mogg as he seems like a genuine bloke.

Even Jeremy Corbyn I would have trusted more than DC and GO, at least before he chose to back remain, he seems to have principles and sticks to his beliefs even if I do disagree with him. Not so sure now though. I would never vote for him though.

Just had enough of reading about lenient prison sentences and of peoples general attitude. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something been added to the water supply in recent years. Too many people think nobody matters other than them, have no respect for anything or anybody, and too many people that can work but don't and just live off of the tax payer. I could write more but the 2nd half of the rugby's started.

 

[websaway]

So in political terms, you'd favour a fairly harsh swing to the right? Is that a fair assessment?

If so, are the Tory party in any shape to provide it?

Why should decency be termed either right or left.

 

[websaway]

I'd just like somebody to take control that has pride in this country and morals to match. People can say what they like about Nigel Farage but nobody can say he doesn't stick to what he believes. I think the only thing I don't really agree with him on is fracking.

I don't know about the Torys. Can't really stand Cameron and definitely can't stand Osborne, right. Can't say I'd really like to see Boris in charge, don't know too much on Michael Gove, maybe Jacob Rees Mogg as he seems like a genuine bloke.

Even Jeremy Corbyn I would have trusted more than DC and GO, at least before he chose to back remain, he seems to have principles and sticks to his beliefs even if I do disagree with him. Not so sure now though. I would never vote for him though.

Just had enough of reading about lenient prison sentences and of peoples general attitude. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something been added to the water supply in recent years. Too many people think nobody matters other than them, have no respect for anything or anybody, and too many people that can work but don't and just live off of the tax payer. I could write more but the 2nd half of the rugby's started.

I'm by no means an expert on this particular subject but I do think on this occasion common sense prevails over expertise, after all, the experts are part of the problem. Politicians used to be roll models for the people, as did doctors and teachers. Then, as decency began to become more vague and less of a necessity, it has set a new much higher level for what we used to term shame. People like Mandelson, who really doesn't care what happens to the country unless it affects him, twice had to resign in government, once for getting a dodgy mortgage and then for getting someone a dodgy passport. Not long ago that would have ended his political career. It didn't , it may well have advanced his career into the EU with a nice salary and a life time pension and a seat in the house of lords to boot . So I believe that if people at the top have no shame and can do wrong, then judges and the like look at the underprivileged and quite understandable use the rule, what's good for the goose has to be good for the gander. It has to work from the top down and we are finding out lately that the top is rotten to the core.

 

[gimpydog]

What I'm saying is that expertise is not something to casually dismiss. And "common sense" (aka opinionated ignorance) is no substitute for it.

I could probably have picked on any of these "experts" & questioned their credibility - whichever side they support.

I doubt anyone has any real expertise on what happens when the UK leaves the EU. Just more verbiage, forecasts & opinions.

What are we left with? Ten experts say 'this', twenty experts say 'that'. Do you go with the numbers, or pick the best qualified or the one with the longest dick?

People need to make up their own minds - not rely on Wikipedia, The Guardian, BBC or any of the others spouting opinions as fact (aka opinionated ignorance).

 

[gimpydog]

For people who do like experts, here's one....

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[Toonz]

Just had enough of reading about lenient prison sentences and of peoples general attitude ... Too many people think nobody matters other than them, have no respect for anything or anybody, and too many people that can work but don't and just live off of the tax payer.

I think both the left and the right are to blame for this. The left's blame has been well-documented in the tabloids for the past few decades, I'm sure we all know the mantra - trendy teachers, lack of discipline, breakdown of "family values", "soft" prison sentences, etc etc. I would say the right wing cause has been the 'me' culture of individualism and selfishness that emerged in the 80s. Consumerism has made people utterly self-absorbed and inward-looking, no longer looking out for their neighbour, no longer possessing a sense of shared responsibility and respect for their neighbourhood, just a big two fingers to the idea of society.

The big question is whether these are the inevitable results of socialist and capitalist elements of society, and what kind of interventions can get us back on track. I'm a fierce opponent of the death penalty for example and I think that liberal values (e.g. abortion, feminism, gay rights, openness about sex, striving for racial equality) and a decline in religious belief are all signs of progress, so I would never want us to reverse direction on those. On the other hand I'm also aware of a great gaping hole where religion used to provide an ethical benchmark, I see lousy parenting and insufficient control over children, I see mind-numbing trash and narcissism as entertainment and a seemingly endless path of dumbing down. It's a messy picture and whenever anyone tries to pin it on just the left or just the right, they're not telling us the whole story. A bit off topic I suppose but I think the support for Brexit is tapping into a bit of this dissatisfaction with the way our society has ended up - a feeling that the political class (the establishment, if you like) has let us down.

 

[Toonz]

I doubt anyone has any real expertise on what happens when the UK leaves the EU. Just more verbiage, forecasts & opinions.

Of course no-one can predict the future with certainty, but that doesn't mean that some forecasts aren't more well-informed than others and that some experts aren't more qualified than others.

What are we left with? Ten experts say 'this', twenty experts say 'that'.

What we're left with is 9 out of 10 economists agreeing about the danger to the British economy of us leaving the EU. And THAT'S the very reason the leave side are desperate to downplay the value placed on experts.

You may think that the hit received by the economy is a price worth paying for regaining greater democracy and sovereignty, but that's a separate point.

The point here is that the downplaying of experts is a political ploy of convenience. If 9 out of 10 economists were telling us that the British economy was going to benefit from leaving the EU, then the Leave side would never be discrediting the importance of experts - and neither would their supporters.

This discrediting of expertise is all politically-motivated bull5hit.

People need to make up their own minds - not rely on Wikipedia, The Guardian, BBC or any of the others spouting opinions as fact

...such as the Sun, the Daily Mail, the Daily Express, the Daily Star, the Times and the Telegraph not to mention Sky News and ITV. Just for completeness.

 

[Toonz]

For people who do like experts, here's one....

with "one" being the operative word.

The point about experts is you find out whether there is anything approaching a consensus - and yes you also look at who they are too. You then factor all this information into your own beliefs and principles and values. What you don't do is arrive with a set of values/prejudices and deny the value of expertise when the expert consensus doesn't match your pre-existing views. That's cheating.

 

[websaway]

Farage an independent expert on the European Union.

 

[Toonz]

Farage an independent expert on the European Union.

And since experts apparently now don't matter to your side, then you will presumably dismiss that as worthless?

 

[websaway]

Interesting article by Bill Cash. Someone had a sense of humour when they named him. Wonder if he was born on the first of the month.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ove-right-case-against-Brussels-behemoth.html

 

[websaway]

economics is a bit like the weather, you can be an expert, but you can't tell it what to do or accurately forecast what it will do. But you can tell accurately tomorrow what it did today.