New domain expiry process and droplists for .uk

[webber]

Cant see how this will stop extra tags now its been explained . It will still give extra chances at catches if theres still a quota (even if polling is gone)

As mentioned above, anyone is free to apply for additional tags if they believe it will help. It shouldn't make any meaningful difference, Nominet says. But this will be more transparent, no more neighbors, friends, employees or fake tags.
There will only be the existing AUP of 1,000 failed <create> commands per 24h. This was discussed in the meetings and it could be increased if server resources are not seriously impacted. The <domain:info> limit will also be reviewed in the same way since it is seen as a replacement for the DAC.

 

[dee]

As mentioned above, anyone is free to apply for additional tags if they believe it will help. It shouldn't make any meaningful difference, Nominet says. But this will be more transparent, no more neighbors, friends, employees or fake tags.
There will only be the existing AUP of 1,000 failed <create> commands per 24h. This was discussed in the meetings and it could be increased if server resources are not seriously impacted. The <domain:info> limit will also be reviewed in the same way since it is seen as a replacement for the DAC.

Thanks, and understood that it's supposed to be fair, and understand you're an advocate for this based on this fact. However, in the maybe four or five years i think it is since i've had a TAG, it seems the playing field has never been fair even though it's supposed to be. I'm not massively technical , neither I suspect are most TAG holders but for the few that are really good at this stuff is it just another opportunity for a grab ? Surely having 5000 create commands gives you the opportunity to flood the timestamp from 5 tags ? And if thats not the case, then surely it will be one tag thats worked out the exact trip time through the shortest route to the exact millisecond ? Maybe i'm not understanding the technical side enough. At least the random drop meant you could all have a random shot ( if exploits were negated of course.)

 

[Paullas]

We are not (or i am not) talking about tags, we are talking about membership from friends, family members etc. I have 4 tags which i use for different activities but only 1 membership which is 1 quota.

What everyone is saying (correct me if i am wrong here) is this will just favor more memberships thus Nominet will get more money for more memberships and the better domains will filter though to the same members after a few months have passed or though private platform behind closed doors auctions.

 

[dee]

We are not (or i am not) talking about tags, we are talking about membership from friends, family members etc. I have 4 tags which i use for different activities but only 1 membership which is 1 quota.

Its always been an advantage to have extra quota for catching. So... that meant a separate entity, with no connection having a tag to also use So cheating if you wanted the extra quota

Edit. Should also mention there were also exploits in the system that got used to even greater effect.

 

[webber]

In the current system there is a real benefit in getting additional memberships and tags, despite being clearly against the rules.
In the proposed system additional memberships will be meaningless since you can get additional tags on your account. But I must stress that Nominet believes additional tags will not make a difference, it's all about timing.

 

[JamesTuplin]

@webber Just so there can be no doubt. I am a member and I wish for my parents, grandparents, children, kids and the milkman to become members (each with their own quota). Would this be ok? If not, what extra steps will be taken to monitor registration patterns, better vet applications of those wishing to become a registrar and punish those found in breach of t&cs ?

 

[JamesTuplin]

And under the new system additional tags would be at cost WITH or without additional creates?

 

[dee]

In the current system there is a real benefit in getting additional memberships and tags, despite being clearly against the rules.
In the proposed system additional memberships will be meaningless since you can get additional tags on your account. But I must stress that Nominet believes additional tags will not make a difference, it's all about timing.

Yes. Think i get the idea ... but that was my other point. If it's all about timing, the surely the person that has the one hop server and is first to the exact timing / latency send will clear up ? Or the person that is very close to exact timing and has two sets of sends seperated by by half a millisecond will clear up ....Or the person that has 3 ..... etc etc

Maybe im not getting it.

 

[dee]

And under the new system additional tags would be at cost WITH or without additional creates?

if you are declaring them as connected . That was always one of the issues wasnt it ?

 

[DJ]

But I must stress that Nominet believes additional tags will not make a difference, it's all about timing.

I'm either not understanding it correctly or this really doesn't make sense to me?

So 'Mr X' & Mr Y' both get there latency and timing spot on, however 'Mr X' is only using 1 TAG with 6 EPP Sockets to fire off EPP CREATE requests, but 'Mr Y' is utilising 3 TAGS and 18 EPP Sockets to fire off EPP CREATE requests - surely 'Mr Y' has an advantage, similar to him having 3 raffle tickets to 'Mr X's' 1?

As you well know, I am not the most technical, so I may well have interpreted this all wrong, but this is my current understanding of the proposal.

 

[dee]

I'm either am not understanding it correctly or this really doesn't make sense to me?

So 'Mr X' & Mr Y' both get there latency and timing spot on, however 'Mr X' is only using 1 TAG with 6 EPP Sockets to fire off EPP CREATE requests, but 'Mr Y' is utilising 3 TAGS and 18 EPP Sockets to fire off EPP CREATE requests - surely 'Mr Y' has an advantage, similar to him having 3 raffle tickets to 'Mr X's' 1?

As you well know, I am not the most technical, so I may well have interpreted this all wrong, but this is my current understanding of the proposal.

this.... you put it better than i did.

 

[webber]

I am a member and I wish for my parents, grandparents, children, kids and the milkman to become members (each with their own quota). Would this be ok?

Nothing changes in regards to membership or tags.
You still need to declare connected tags, these still share any quotas, etc.
Nominet are only implementing droplists, which was overwhelmingly supported in the 2019 consultation.
Hence why the UKRAC work was called DLIWG (Drop Lists Implementation Working Group) and not something else.

'Mr X' is only using 1 TAG with 6 EPP Sockets to fire off EPP CREATE requests, but 'Mr Y' is utilising 3 TAGS and 18 EPP Sockets to fire off EPP CREATE requests - surely 'Mr Y' has an advantage, similar to him having 3 raffle tickets to 'Mr X's' 1?

Not necessarily. It really depends on how good their timing is.
Sounds to me like Mr X has a very good solution and he is confident his timing is spot on, while Mr Y is kind of winging it and firing as many <create> as possible in the hope he might get lucky. If Mr X's timing is indeed spot on then he can still catch the domain with a single <create>
We'll have to wait and see I suppose. But if additional tags is a proven benefit then anyone is free to sign up for an additional tag and this will all be transparent to everyone else.

 

[dee]

Not necessarily. It really depends on how good their timing is.
Sounds to me like Mr X has a very good solution and his timing is spot on, while Mr Y is kind of winging it and firing as many <create> as possible in the hope he might get lucky. If Mr X's timing is indeed spot on then he can still catch the domain with a single <create>
We'll have to wait and see I suppose. But if additional tags is a proven benefit then anyone is free to sign up for an additional tag and this will all be transparent to everyone else.

Out of interest. What is the timing resolution for this stuff?

And... you're saying once the timing is right then its a done deal ? It wont take long to work out the timing for the tech bods, and then its just repeat the fire at correct interval and win then ?

Not trying to be facetious, just trying to understand.

 

[webber]

And... you're saying once the timing is right then its a done deal ? It wont take long to work out the timing for the tech bods, and then its just repeat the fire at correct interval and win then ?

IP data takes different routes at different times even if nothing else changes.
Most likely your software will have to determine the latency every time it connects, constantly measure it, and then compensate for that. Maybe even factor in any additional network load that might be expected at that specific moment when it sends the <create> if it is a particularly popular domain.

It will really be a technical race. Some members will love this and tinker with their software and constantly improve it. This is also the case now. Other members will wing it and flood the EPP with 1000 <create> commands. Some members can do both.

Let's be honest, currently there are a few tags, using highly tuned software and servers, that we expect to catch a highly disputed domain in a day. There is an element of randomness to the whole thing so one can expect to get lucky once in a while if they use a decent enough software and server, and maybe a more narrowly focused strategy.
I think this will continue to remain mostly the same – there will be those that can dedicate the time to write great software and tweak it every day; they will always reap the rewords for their work. But I think there will also be an element of luck for those firing their entire 1000 <create> quota on a single domain.
We'll just have to work out what works and what doesn't, as we have done with the DAC.

 

[dee]

IP data takes different routes at different times even if nothing else changes.
Most likely your software will have to determine the latency every time it connects, constantly measure it, and then compensate for that. Maybe even factor in any additional network load that might be expected at that specific moment when it sends the <create> if it is a particularly popular domain.

It will really be a technical race. Some members will love this and tinker with their software and constantly improve it. This is also the case now. Other members will wing it and flood the EPP with 1000 <create> commands. Some members can do both.

Let's be honest, currently there are a few tags, using highly tuned software and servers, that we expect to catch a highly disputed domain in a day. There is an element of randomness to the whole thing so one can expect to get lucky once in a while if they use a decent enough software and server, and maybe a more narrowly focused strategy.
I think this will continue to remain mostly the same. There will be those that can dedicate the time to write great software and tweak it every day. Those will always reap the rewords. But there will also be an element of luck for those firing their entire 1000 <create> quota on a single domain.

Yes. Again though.... theres advantage to be had being in close proximity and a short hop away from reciving server. Thats always been the case.

 

[webber]

theres advantage to be had being in close proximity and a short hop away from reciving server. Thats always been the case.

That's definitely the case now. It will no longer be the case, for sure. See this:

Theoretically, if I was in Australia I could send my request off 200 ms ahead of time and still beat someone who is 0.5 ms away if I timed it right.

 

[lazarus]

And... you're saying once the timing is right then its a done deal ? It wont take long to work out the timing for the tech bods, and then its just repeat the fire at correct interval and win then ?

Too many variables to set and forget. It will have to be constantly tweaked.

 

[dee]

That's definitely the case now. It will no longer be the case, for sure. See this:

Again, i may just not be getting this, but the traceroute from Australia is gonna be zipping around all over the place, through many routes,compounding errors and timing. Thats different to having a server in the same building isnt it ??

 

[dee]

Too many variables to set and forget. It will have to be constantly tweaked.

okay. I guess im not understanding the tech side. Guess thats a good thing. Although also a good reason to have multiple tags with different settings maybe .. possibly ?

 

[lazarus]

Again, i may just not be getting this, but the traceroute from Australia is gonna be zipping around all over the place, through many routes,compounding errors and timing. Thats different to having a server in the same building isnt it ??

If you know the time it takes to get from point A to point B then you can just send the request that much ahead of time.