.UK Announced

[Brassneck]

GreyWing - I linked to the video from my website a while ago and it is still there on YouTube. I simply cannot see Nominet remove a video like that. Please give Nominet the benefit of the doubt before you go into global thermonuclear warfare mode. Send me a PM if you need the link.

And to everyone on the forum:
Can I just say that I am so against personal attacks on anyone - whether it is individuals at Nominet or domainers on the forum. PLEASE can we try to draw a line on the past and see if we can all start again?

How did they ever do it with the peace process in Northern Ireland?
So many "They killed my grandfather" - "The b....s killed some of our finest men". "5 years ago they this this...". "Remember 10 years ago when they did that...".
How did they draw a line and start to visualize what a peaceful future in Northern Ireland could look like - and BELIEVE in it?
(It is a rhetorical question - please do not debate here. I just wish we could all do the same and start over with the .UK name space).
We all remember things that went wrong in the relationship between Nominet and the members of this forum. Mistakes were made on both sides.
Let's try and put all of this aside and focus on the issue.

Until yesterday I thought that Nominet's proposal had been the answer to the question "How can we possibly in one fell swoop annoy domain holders, deprive active businesses of their digital assets or substantially add to their overheads, and generally get everybody up in arms?" - (OK, plus a few more other unprintable things, GreyWing. I was close to GTNW).
That is how I entered the Nominet consultation room on Thursday.

Maybe I was simply being disarmed by a very slick Nominet PR operation.
But it did not feel like it. I actually felt that the Nominet people genuinely did not understand the nuances of what they were proposing and why they could make themselves some very powerful legal enemies outside the domain world (see Edwin's list). I felt that they genuinely listened.

That is why I believe that the Nominet proposals as they stand will have to be amended.

But it has dawned on me that the real question Nominet might have attempted to answer with their proposal is:
How do we make sure that the .UK namespace continues to be important in an age of new gTLDs? How do we ensure that we retain customers and that we offer them a trusted .UK environment? Now that we understand as a result of the success of the 1&2 letter domain auctions that domains have value, how can we release domains so we can do worthwhile things with the Nominet Trust and make the Internet world a better place?

In other words - yes, Nominet came up with the wrong answer.
The got the process of consultation badly wrong.
But please all of us let's try to think of what could and should be changed in the .UK namespace so that
a) .UK domains retain their value
b) Nominet customers do not experience confusion about .co.uk and .uk extension for businesses
c) domains are released on expiry in a way that benefits everyone
d) Consumers are more aware of .co.uk and prefer it over all the other gTLDs
e) friendly relations are resumed with everyone.

Imagine...!
I will have to think about it all a lot more before posting again.
The simple answer is "DON'T DO IT". The harder question is:
What else could Nominet do to keep .UK attractive.
(sorry about yet another long post - it never rains but pours).

Excellent post - thanks.

 

[anthony]

GreyWing - I linked to the video from my website a while ago and it is still there on YouTube. I simply cannot see Nominet remove a video like that. Please give Nominet the benefit of the doubt before you go into global thermonuclear warfare mode...

You may be linking to one of the other vids, but the Oath one has definitely been removed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9mjQQqYvVg&feature=plcp

 

[Stephen]

Going Forward

d) Consumers are more aware of .co.uk and prefer it over all the other gTLDs

Agree whole hearately with Angie's post.

I believe we need to work on 2 objectives ;

1. To obtain change on the .uk proposal, so it does not damage the uk namespace

2. As well as pointing out the short commings of the .uk proposal as is, also add positive comments on how the namespace should look like and evolve. Making constructive suggestions on how Nominet may find a real pivotal role in making all uk tld's more trusted and secure with as many USP's, without any gimmicks and the minimum amout of expenditure. I have during the researtch on background to the .uk proposal discovered lots of areas that Nominet could enhance the uk interenet experience and in conversations they were talking note and keen to explore new concepts.

Rgds
Stephen

 

[GreyWing]

GreyWing - I linked to the video from my website a while ago and it is still there on YouTube. I simply cannot see Nominet remove a video like that. Please give Nominet the benefit of the doubt before you go into global thermonuclear warfare mode. Send me a PM if you need the link.

Hi Angie,

It is a weird one, some are saying it has been removed whilst others can see it. I have 100% seen that the "this video has been removed due to a legal complaint". Maybe it is still live on some of YouTube's servers or cached.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD6vIHG_R-w

Not really a massive issue as I have offered to host the video directly on that.co.uk

This was passed to me.....

" The YouTube Community has flagged one or more of your videos as inappropriate. Once a video is flagged, it is reviewed by the YouTube Team against our Community Guidelines. Upon review, we have determined that the following video(s) contain content in violation of these guidelines, and have been disabled:

Dear MP - Please Defend Me From Nominet

YouTube blocks content where necessary to comply with local laws in certain countries. Check your videos to make sure that they comply with your own country's laws, to prevent videos from being blocked in the future. "

I have been told there maybe another video on its way. "Dear Nominet - Please let me contact my MP"

 

[Stephen]

Address system?

Even if .uk doesn't happen, a more convenient, more concise address system will certainly happen as part of the natural improvement of the web, eventually (soon in my opinion). I find vain hopes that such plans will be abandoned forever (and portfolios therefore protected forever) comparable in likelihood to somehow halting a hurricane with a machine constructed from two twigs and an elastic band.

I apologise if I'm missing the point

can you please explain and expand more on what the "more convenient, more concise address system" will look like?

 

[Edwin]

We're at that stage now where so much noise is being generated, the message is getting lost. The posted questions and answers asked of and provided by the Nominet staff give us nothing new and in fact provoke more questions yet everyone is suddenly in a conciliatory mood and happy to trust that the right thing will happen.

I'm definitely not in a conciliatory mood. Far from it. In fact, after 3 days of stonewalling from Nominet I came away from an expensive, very draining and demanding 13-hour 3-day consultation feeling that I learned virtually nothing at all about what Nominet's own plans are or on what basis any of them were formulated. I literally can't count the number of times I was directed back to the wording of the consultation as "explanation" of one or other aspect of it.

On the other hand, I've learned a ton about how others feel about the situation and the idea of a .uk, and their issues and objections to it. Domain investors, certainly, but also trademark/IP industry folk, registrars, regular businesses (large and small), consultants and other types of entity.

My point a few posts back is that it seems pointless to me to try and challenge Nominet on an individual level i.e. by taking aim at one or other executive within Nominet. That will heat up an already potentially fraught situation while blunting any otherwise valid points raised as a result.

Challenges to the overall ".uk idea" and to the proposal as it stands should be aimed at Nominet (the entity) and the pressure must be kept on relentlessly.

This can be achieved in a number of ways:
- Filling out the consultation document (make sure you look carefully at Section N on page 17 as that's where you get to say "NO" to the whole proposal - please do fill in the rest even if you said "NO" since otherwise there will be nothing gained if the decision ends up being taken to go ahead)
- Get others to fill in the consultation. If they're outside the domain industry, so much the better.
- Personally take the time to brief friends, colleagues, co-workers, acquaintances, etc. about the issues in broad strokes. Focus on what it might mean FOR THEM. The proposal is much, much too complex for it to be worth explaining the whole thing.
- Try and get media and/or government attention focused on the issue
- Write a coherent, rant-free analysis expressing your view and publish it somewhere public (your site/blog, a forum, a comment to a news article or blog post, etc.)
- Wash, rinse, repeat, then repeat some more

In addition to the above, if you know people who have the skills and expertise to analyse and deconstruct specific sections of the proposal (e.g. security experts, branding experts, economists etc.) you might consider reaching out to them to get their thoughts on what is being proposed. For example, there are a number of fairly obvious flaws in Nominet's security plan, and the introduction of .uk would introduce other predictable security risks that otherwise would not exist. If they are willing to post that analysis publicly under their own name with their qualifications visible, that's even better yet.

 

[GreyWing]

Angie and Stephen, I would ordinarily agree whole heartedly with what you say but in order to achieve your aims, you must start from a position of trust and given that the board has previously lied to the membership, I can't do that.

We're at that stage now where so much noise is being generated, the message is getting lost. The posted questions and answers asked of and provided by the Nominet staff give us nothing new and in fact provoke more questions yet everyone is suddenly in a conciliatory mood and happy to trust that the right thing will happen.

Well at your peril be it.

Sean we are of exactly the same opinion mate, but even I would advise anyone reading this to follow their advice.

 

[Stephen]

Angie and Stephen, I would ordinarily agree whole heartedly with what you say but in order to achieve your aims, you must start from a position of trust and given that the board has previously lied to the membership, I can't do that.

We're at that stage now where so much noise is being generated, the message is getting lost. The posted questions and answers asked of and provided by the Nominet staff give us nothing new and in fact provoke more questions yet everyone is suddenly in a conciliatory mood and happy to trust that the right thing will happen.

Well at your peril be it.

I disagree that the answers from Nominet have not provided anything new. Plus investigations and research from Edwin provided real ammunition to show that Nominet have not considered alternatives. In the 3 days of Nominet meetings, I assure you that Nominet were not prepared for the range and depth of questions, some of which they have to fully respond to.

I for one am not just going to assume that the points I and others have made are the end of it, I want to fine tune the arguments and articulate them to Nominet and others that have a vested interest in the outcome (which indirectly is all web users in the uk) until the job is done!

I concide there is a lot of noise and the message is not always crystal clear at this stage, but it is gathering information stage, which requires dialogue and time and unfortunately as Edwin put it in another post "this it is not a negotiation" and you cannot assume that they agree or disagree with comments received and we have no way at this stage what the directors are thinking or how they will act.

But pressue is being put on Nominet to make the process more transparent and release all responses, the original market research, their budgets, their plans for implementation and many more pieces of information, all of which will be used if the Directors via from the conclusion of factual data.

I hope this and Edwins post above settle your anxiety.

Rgds
Stephen

 

[GreyWing]

Act like Nero?

Sean, how long have you known me on this forum? Do you think I am acting like Nero? Do you think I am not up to something?

Drop me an email /// help {at} greywing .co.uk

 

[Edwin]

But if the source of conflict seems to point consistently to the same people and if those people always get their way, sometimes by the use of duplicitous behaviour, at what point do we stop giving them the benefit of the doubt?

I'm happy to listen to your advice but please tell me what I should expect to receive for my silence?

I didn't say "give them the benefit of the doubt". Far from it. How you think of them is entirely up to you, and I am not seeking to change your impression of individual Nominet employees.

I said "attacking particular people accomplishes nothing towards the wider goal". (which I assume must be either to stop or to modify the proposal)

Attacking the proposal itself with logic and reason, on the other hand, MIGHT.

 

[Edwin]

For anyone who's interested, I've added a ton of extra sources to the tally of news/blog articles I've been keeping about the proposal.
http://www.mydomainnames.co.uk/articles.html

 

[websaway]

Are certain people pushing so hard because they are the large portfolio owners
or are they the large portfolio owners because they push so hard.


Nominet have chosen formidable opponents as I see it.

 

[Stephen]

I take on board what Stephen says, i.e. people are coming back to him with answers which if that happens will be great but it's a big IF.

I will keep pushing, having sent 5 new email requets for information today to Nominet.

Will report back to this thread when I have some final answers and hope that others will keep the infomation also flowing to this thread.

The worrying thing for me is that this story has no traction at all. I assure you that I'm not trying to be smart but can you please point me to a negative report relating to this proposal in the mainstream media?

I've read a few stories and blog posts on domain and affiliate related sites and the odd IT site but the comments sections always seem to provoke more pro .uk responses than anti ones.

The well constructed final arguments have yet to be made and they need to be fully viable and understood and thought through unlike Nominet's own position.

As Edwin said before earlier in the thread, the last 3 days have enabled us all to understand more of the viewpoints, needs and wants of other vested interests and other domainers in the uk namespace.

Then it will be the time to bring the matter to the attention of the media both on and offline.

My favourite imagined story at the moment is "The Mail" front page about how nominet will let all these foreign trademark holders come and plunder our .uk" - but I dont think that will be good story for the uk namespace.

Can you also give me an idea of numbers that attended the briefings, perhaps that will give me hope.

The numbers at the time didn't give me hope but the comments, questions and responses did! as did the exchanges before and after the sessions.

On Tuesday and Wednesday - Nominet had about 10 people and about 15 other people attended each session.

On Thursday the open day Nominet had 14 people and about 30 other people mainly domainers came during the course of the day.

Sorry did not attend Friday session.

--------------

I'm replying to these to try to move matters on but I'd rather be spending my time constructing those logical arguments about how to go forward, so hopfully we can move onto constructive debate on getting a result.

Rgds
Stephen

 

[Stephen]

----- duplicate--------

 

[Stephen]

Request for information

In addition to the above, if you know people who have the skills and expertise to analyse and deconstruct specific sections of the proposal (e.g. security experts, branding experts, economists etc.) you might consider reaching out to them to get their thoughts on what is being proposed. For example, there are a number of fairly obvious flaws in Nominet's security plan, and the introduction of .uk would introduce other predictable security risks that otherwise would not exist. If they are willing to post that analysis publicly under their own name with their qualifications visible, that's even better yet.

Totally agree with you entire post and very articulate, as ever.

I would like to ask that on the last part of the post quoted above, that any such articles or information be posted in full/summary and or link to this thread, so that a full constructed position can potentially put forward as an alternative proposal.

Rgds
Stephen

 

[monaghan]

Are certain people pushing so hard because they are the large portfolio owners
or are they the large portfolio owners because they push so hard.


Nominet have chosen formidable opponents as I see it.

The large portfolio is at risk, however, the small business also has a big financial outlay as they'll either need to get the .uk and run a re-direct to their .co.uk or they'll need to rebrand to .uk, failure to get the .uk opens the door for a competitor to do so and take business away. If they don't have a trademark, then they potentially stand to loose out by default handing over a potential chunk of their traffic free of charge to the .uk owner.

We all are impacted in our different way and it is good that there are some with the time & energy to put into attending meetings & writing reports.

 

[foz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9mjQQqYvVg&feature=plcp

Is blocked when using a UK IP.

This content is not available in your country due to a legal complaint.
Sorry about that.

I can view it with a NZ IP.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD6vIHG_R-w

I can view this with a UK & NZ IP.

 

[philiporchard]

Trademark Quiz - How much do you know?

How much do you know about trademarks?

Take the quiz. The last question may interest you: If I own the trademark for my company's name, I automatically have the right to register my company's name as a domain name - True or False

http://www.taylorwessing.com/ipmyths/trademark.html

 

[philiporchard]

Brand Infrigement and Passing Off

For companies that have built their brands around domains, issues relating 'Brand Infringement' and 'Passing Off' must come into play.

There are usually three requirements needed to establish a passing off claim. They are:

• Goodwill - Basically this means reputation. It is the benefit of the good name, reputation and connection of a business. It is the attractive force that brings in custom. It is the one thing that distinguishes an established business from a new business.

• Misrepresentation - Any misrepresentation must be made by a trader in the course of trade and it must have lead to confusion or the likelihood of confusion in the mind of the customer.

• Damage - This means establishing actual or likely financial loss. This could include loss of profit in an existing market, loss of reputation or loss of opportunity to expand.


If you've built up a brand around bluewidgets.co.uk, then bluewidgets.uk is going to be confusingly similar, will benefit from the name and reputation built up by bluewidgets.co.uk and will mean an actual financial loss for bluewidgets.co.uk, as traffic will naturally leak.

Surely bluewidgets.co.uk have a stronger claim, under common law, than someone with a registered mark for blue widgets that isn't being actively used?


Passing Off article: http://www.adlsolicitors.com/index....brand-infringement&catid=31:general&Itemid=28

 

[Stephen]

The counter arguments

The people present today urged Nominet to send an email to its registrant database and canvass their thoughts.
When you think about it, the domain portfolio holders actually have a lot to lose with this suggestion. After all, if a large majority of the 3m+ registrants come back and love the Nominet proposals then we as portfolio holders need to take this on board.
A.

When I read this I thought, no people I have discussed this with dont love it is as. BUT it has taken me a while to realize why there is a difference to people just filling in the proposal?

My conclusion is they have not had the 16 years dealing with domains as I have, they have not read the arguments, they have not read this entire thread (but who would now as it is so long!) , they have not seen the videos, not read Edwins report, not visited that.co.uk, not been to 3 days with Nominet and are completing a proposal which has leading questions and a style of "this is going to happen -we just looking to fine tune it" and which contains no counter proposals or arguments or swat analysis or negative impact etc.

So yes thier will be some who fill in the proposal and state yes as is, because of the above not because it is the right way forward.

I believe that 90% of the people who say yes to the proposal as is could be persuaded to say no or would want the proposal to be materially changed.

So as well as getting people to complete the form, I would like to direct them to read some arguments against the proposal, does anybody have a view if there is one site or article or report that would give them a new perspective before they completed the response?

Rgds
Stephen