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.org.uk and .uk

Discussion in '.UK Domain Name Consultations' started by retired_member33, Nov 23, 2013.

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  1. anthony United Kingdom

    anthony Well-Known Member

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    But they haven't. In the 10 years or so of catches i've watched, most are still with those who caught them, not end users!

    That is exactly what is happening now. Remember, that 1.4% has within it a higher than normal proportion of .co.uk domains caught by domainers. In effect, Nominet are handing them the ultimate 'dividend' over more rightful .org.uk owners!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
  2. Domain Forum

    Acorn Domains Elite Member

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    articles.co.uk
     
  3. markb United Kingdom

    markb Active Member

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    As I am a business owner and not a domainer, when I first joined this forum, I really hated domainers. I only ended up joining the forum because I was interested in a domain that I wanted and the owner wanted £10k for it which I didn't think it was worth. I think I came on here for advice.

    Since I first joined I have now bought quite a few premium domains and spent well over £100k on them. They have all been bought for future development projects for my company.

    I no longer hate domainers and can see that they do invest a lot of time and money in the domains they hold. Its only similar to car registration plates, where companies buy them and sell them for a profit.

    In regards to your teaspoons.co.uk example, I think this price is pretty cheap and no-one is being held for randsom neither do I think its over priced. There are many alternative domains people could use instead of this one.
     
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  4. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    Have to disagree, property prices in London have rocketed out of all sensible proportions (London could hardly be defined as a ransom strip ) simply because of demand. If there is a strong demand for something it will always reflect in the price.

    High quality domains are not infinite in availability which is similar to London property, so therefore the asking price by those owners will reflect that.

    You'll need to elaborate on hitting the jackpot and be more specific.
    If someone names their new business news ltd and then goes and asks to buy news.co.uk they can expect to be quoted a high price, naturally.
     
  5. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    It occurs to me that the people who complain most about domain prices in the secondary market are the very people who seek to gain financially from their acquisition.
     
  6. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    I didn't think brassneck was on about serious premiums. Obviously most people are ultimately out to make something out of being the registrant of a domain name.
     
  7. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    As you may know, "domainer" is an invented word, with no qualified definition. Would you say you are a "domain name investor" amongst other things? :)

    [snip]

    Cheap compared to what and for whom? For you? For everyone? Obviously there are usually alternatives. :) However why is teaspoons.co.uk worth that figure? :)
     
  8. markb United Kingdom

    markb Active Member

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    Yes, I would definitely class myself as an investor of domains now, as I have invested a lot of money. When I say "domainer", I mean someone who buys them to sell.


    I can see that this isn't cheap to everyone, but I would class it as a premium domain. If someone couldn't afford a premium car, they would look for a cheaper alternative. At the end of the day, a domain owner can ask for whatever they like for one of their domains. However I do see quite a few domain owners asking unreasonable amounts for their domains, as I have been interested in a few before and offered what I thought was a good price and they have turned round and asked for 10 times the amount I have offered. I can see that it is very annoying, but if they don't want to sell for a cheaper price, well that is their choice. Some people can be pretty greedy. But domains are extremely unique, so I guess this gives the seller the upper hand.
     
  9. Brassneck United Kingdom

    Brassneck Well-Known Member

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    Correct. I think everybody understands the value of super premium category killer domains.

    I think the point I was trying to allude to earlier is that it might be more helpful to us all if there was a more liquid market for decent usable domain names. Over the years I have sold hundreds of names in the mid XXX range - generally business end users can see that I am being fair and I am happy that I made a decent and fairly quick return on my original purchase. Would rather sell 5 per cent of my portfolio per year at those rates than <1 per cent playing the lottery ticket hording approach.

    I honestly think that more sensible (and to the general public more reasonable) pricing across the board could be a win-win all round.

    Stephen.
     
  10. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    Again it would be interesting to see examples of the £500 domains you have sold, and an indication that the sale is free standing and not linked to charging for other services in conjunction with the sale.

    I don't see much difference between a 500 and 1500 pounds domain sale. It will all depend on date of registration, quality of name, and potential competition from purchasers.
    If the sale to an end user is quick and efficient it's worth not haggling about the price to save time and labour costs.
     
  11. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    What was the domain, What price did you offer and what did the 10 times amount to ?
     
  12. mdb United Kingdom

    mdb Active Member

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    I don't think any small business owner would ever expect to own the best commercial property in London, end of :D

    That's actually an apt example given what's being talked about right now re land that's being sat on and the need for more houses. There's increasing noise from MPs on all sides on the land-lock issue. So long as new developments don't take place it keeps prices / rents high and property developers happy. It has stifled the recovery though, so in this example each to their own what they think is best.

    It's a fair enough argument though... I think in most instances domainers know a ballpark figure for what their domain is worth, or the successful ones will work with a buyer for mutual interest. What gets me is how some domainers have fanciful ideas on valuations and they hold absolute power to lock out a business which has a generic name and was established way before .co.uk existed. They're small businesses without trademarks and copyrights. For that business, owning the .co.uk could be very progressive for them, and better for the majority.

    Using the same case I mentioned, even the business owners themselves made mistakes about their own web / email addresses, obviously their customers did too. It was just pure luck they were able to eventually get the .co.uk then plain sailing...

    In fact it's an interesting point. That .co.uk domain on the one hand was one day worth 10,000s to the first registrant, yet he eventually dropped it? So assuming he didn't die, was it really worth that? Nope. You don't have a high-value plot of land for sale and then suddenly abandon it?

    In a similar instance I owned a .com that a US hotel chain wanted. We did a deal, they hung on to it for a few years, did nothing with it and dropped it... I got a legal enslaught from a corporate over two other .com registrations. It wasn't abusive imo, the absolute opposite - I was helping their customers fix their products that their services centres couldn't fix. I didn't argue it, but for several reasons that business never recovered with the new domain I moved to. The original domains were FTR within a year or two. They could have worked with me on a transition, but nope... So, happy to see their share price is squarely in the toilet :D Meanwhile, their competitor took a much more pragmatic approach over how their brand is used online by its customers. Its value is now x 20 higher than it was then. Happy I invested in them :D

    So what makes domains different... I think maybe it's because of that element of irrationality, or that there's still some of the Wild West to play out. Other mature markets don't have this, but they all have to start somewhere. You don't have a young inexperienced guy who can (with such low barriers to entry) waltz on to Average Street (note, not Oxford Street) buy a plot of land that can only realistically be used by one company for one thing and then hold that company to ransom... Yes, DRS affords some protection, but it's not absolute.

    Granted I'm not a domainer though. I'm sure you guys will be able to tell me about the positives, and if 98.6% are truly going to be happy with the way .uk will be roled out, I suppose on balance that's more than enough for peeps like me to lump it, if they have to. I personally thought there would have been more disgruntled .org.uk registrants... Not that the majority will probably know they'll be disgruntled... yet.

    Just like in most things in life we need protecting from outrselves.

    The bottom line, I fail to see how locking up a .co.uk / .uk domain for 3, 5 or 10 years, which locks out a legitimate business owner from using it, and as a consequence it essentially forces them to reconcile between an inferior .co.uk or an inferior .org.uk is good business.

    It's a question of morality. If I asked special interest groups in Washington and Pakistan over the use of drone strikes I expect I'll get different arguments. Then if I asked a wider populist view I'd get another answer. I think registrants should have been given a voice in all this? Maybe they were, but I can't recall this one being offered to put his views into the consultations.

    Can't divulge the exact domain... brilliantconstructionservices.co.uk would be a near enough example in the case I'm referring to. I said at best it would be worth low xxx in an auction, not 20k, so my client went for .org.uk at the time. Now they own both.

    +1

    Yes, but registration plates don't help facilitate business. My reg number is immaterial to someone in the other side of the world who I am trying to communicate with. Domain names aren't a commodity to be admired, they're too intrinsically linked to the wellbeing of the wider economy.

    I suppose that's my point, there isn't always strong demand. Well there is, it just comes from one person / company, and he can't compete with anyone else to bring about an indication to a seller of a fairer, more realistic price the buyer / seller can negotiate on.

    Agreed, anyone starting a business now should factor in domain names when it comes to choosing a name for their company.

    I'm not complaining about the secondary market on the whole, as I said I think most domainers are rational and I certainly don't object to the business model. I have a problem with irrational idiots who control power and their one folly ruins it for a majority of others.

    Since property has been used as an anology, should we talk about compulsory purchase orders? ;) (Now, where did I put my Iron Man suit?)

    +1
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
  13. Edwin

    Edwin Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    mdb, are you talking about "generic" domains or domains that actually map directly to the (non-generic) business names of particular businesses.

    I'd really like to understand what kinds of names (I don't need examples) you feel are being blocked from use in this way.

    If they're the kind of names that the current owners (the ones holding them for resale) would be a toss-up to lose in a DRS action, then I can fully appreciate your irritation - I dislike cybersquatters too.

    If they're generics, then that's just market forces.
     
  14. mdb United Kingdom

    mdb Active Member

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    I'm talking about companies that use generic words in their names, like the example in my previous post. You could argue they weren't very inventive when it came to choosing the name, but equally these companies existed pre-internet age.

    TOWNtrade - They're very genenric, but there's lots of examples of businesses like this. Domainers reg'd them in the hopes to flog them on to the company, similar companies or utilise them for SEO etc. Because of their "genericness" it's hard to argue a DRS... So, as in the case I illustrated, the company went for a less desirable .co.uk, or the .org.uk because they couldn't invest 20k in what they really wanted and .co.uk sits there gatheirng dust. It's these folks I feel sorry for. If I know they exist, Nominet knows they exist, and as such I think it could have been addressed in some modicom for the launch of .uk.
     
  15. websaway United Kingdom

    websaway Well-Known Member

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    The generics you refer to are normally priced on sedo at 500 to 2000 pounds
    Not sure about your 20k claim.
     
  16. foz

    foz Well-Known Member Exclusive Member

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    Agree. £20K will buy you a very nice premium one word domain.
     
  17. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    These kind of threads end up going nowhere, unfortunately, because many posters are unwilling to cite a specific domain name and a specific price requested for the other forum members to consider.


    (from iPhone)
     
  18. mdb United Kingdom

    mdb Active Member

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    Errm, well I'm pretty sure about it?

    If it had been offered for 500, maybe even 1k, a deal would have been done. But no, the idiot sat on it for several years, did nothing with it and then ultimately dropped it. It caused several years of hassle for the business owner.

    As I said, most domainers I think are rational, but these, who I would take a guess at, are young and inexperienced in the real world of day-to-day business. I think it's dangerous these peeps hold this kind of power.

    I don't for one minute think it would be difficult to police though.

    It's because the barriers to entry are so low, the investment can be so little, and the cost of maintaining the registration is miniscule. Maybe there's a similar market, I can't think of one though?
     
  19. invincible

    invincible Well-Known Member

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    But difficult enough for you to explain how? :)

    I'd be interested to hear opinions of similar markets.




    (from iPhone)
     
  20. mdb United Kingdom

    mdb Active Member

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    I agree, but some plantpots have a different view.

    I said it above but it was a long post. :) brilliantconstructionservices.co.uk - that's not it, I don't want to talk about my client specifically, but it is equally of the same quality.

    It's not a 20k a domain.

    I don't know, maybe have something similar to a DRS for domains held by the same registrant for X years? Whether they're parked or have some naff wordpress blog thrown up? Not saying that should apply to all generic domains.

    Charge more for domain registration?

    +1
     
  21. Skinner

    Skinner Well-Known Member

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    mdb you don't seem to understand, the .com world established that domaining (the speculative purchase of domains and subsequent retention for sale) is a legit business. Nominet accepted this is a legit business, this is no different to car number plates, property or any other limited edition product.

    So yourself have said you held a hotel chain to ransom and did a deal, why didn't you simply give the domain to them since they obviously felt they had claim to it ?

    Double Standards there my friend, explain why you think its ok for you to do this but not others on a larger scale ?
     
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