.org.uk and .uk

[Systreg]

@ Invincible, that's your point of view, I guess we'll see what happens as time goes by, but regardless of what your opinion is, the pricing or the org.uk's I'm keeping doesn't change, in my opinion nothing has changed with the placings

 

[Systreg]

We shall see shan't we! Everyone make a note to return to this thread in a couple of years.

Please do, but no matter what happens, nothing changes for me

 

[markb]

I ended up paying £2k for a .org.uk domain where I owned the .co.uk but the org.uk was registered beforehand. I did this as a defensive buy. The previous owner of the .org.uk said he had interest in the domain off at least 5 different people all within the space of a few weeks. Looking back, its £2k I didn't need to spend now, but I did what I had to at the time.

 

[markb]

I was luckier than you with the defensive .org.uk I purchased. The registrant wasn't resolving it and I managed to contact him through external research rather than using snail mail at the address displayed in the WHOIS. After I'd made contact by email he informed me that he'd moved house and hadn't updated the address, thus I knew that if anyone else had written to him it was unlikely that their letter would get delivered. Nethertheless we managed a 24 hour turnaround from contact to transfer.


(from iPhone)

I'm presuming you managed to get it at a good price then. The person who I bought the org.uk didn't have a clue why people where interested all of a sudden, but due to the high interest, he was able to get a very good price for his domain.

 

[philiporchard]

Like many I started buying .org.uk domains to protect the ones I owned and also to take a chance with some others. I wouldn't have done it if the consultation hadn't started, but with 20 new websites, I'm pleased I did.

 

[mdb]

A great thread...

The reason why i went for the .org.uk is because the .com is an American website and that the .co.uk has been registered by someone who has it parked on Sedo from the day he registered it.

I sympathise with pretty much if not all of what you say on this thread. The fact that .org.uk registrants have been completely ignored imo is the biggest hole in the announcement, more than the five year sunrise.

I have a client who had to go for the .org.uk (a small independent tradesman) who had to opt for it when the .co.uk domainer wanted what would have equated to months worth of profit to him. If it had been listed on DL I think it would have fetched low xxx. Ironically the domainer just dropped it so I snapped it up for him. A bit of a rarity.

In my opinion if someone builds a website on a .org.uk domain just because the .co.uk domain is already taken, they have done so in the knowledge that they don't own the best extension...

If you feel like you have the right to the ".uk" domain then you should also feel like you have the right to the ".co.uk" domain.

But in the same sentiment as above, there are small business owners who are essentially locked out owning the "best" .co.uk because some domainers were / are asking wholly disporporiate asking prices, obviously going on the faith that the domain will mature. All domainers take different views on valuations. It's a shame that with the introduction of .uk, knowing the option that .co.uk registrants have, it offers the .org.uk registrants sod all.

Nominet could easily have contacted all end registrants if it really wanted to, god knows they're quick enough sending you email after email when it looks like you're dropping domain names or when it is canvassing for your opinion!

Well said, the most relevant post on this thread imo. Tell me if I'm wrong, but it looks as though the millions of registrants, who lets face it are the most important stakeholders, have basically been ignored?

What was the issue with the DPA? Nominet have my email address? They have my mailing address? The DPA would be the best excuse for a cop out I think I've ever heard for something as important as this.

They will be once .uk is launched, if we're talking about ones registered for commercial use as a substitute for the unavailable .co.uk. While we have no way of knowing which of .co.uk/.uk will rule supreme in the short/medium/long term, it seems pretty obvious that .org.uk will play third fiddle to the two key extensions.

Yes and no. I agree that they'll definitely play third fiddle and become the least desirable option, but they're already the least desirable between .co.uk, and as .co.uk will essentially equate to the .uk, I don't see how much will change? I can't imagine domainers would split a .co.uk / .uk package... so for peeps who for whatever reason don't have the .co.uk / .uk, the .org.uk will continue be a next best, logical option.

I think the only thing that would affect .org.uk going forward is if Google alter how they're treated in the SERPs for commercial entities. Guessing how many of these websites exist I can't see them doing anything drastic in this dept.

I think the majority of people who are complaining about the .uk going to the .co.uk owner, are probably people who have invested time and money in .org.uk domains since the consultation began, purely to try to get the the .uk domain over the current .co.uk owner. I'm not saying this is true in every case.

For all my arguments over the past couple of days, I think it's fair that the .uk go to the .co.uk registrant if it HAD to go to one or other. Obviously I think there should have been better options for the lowly .org.uk registrant Well there should have better options for everyone, but I'll stop banging that drum.

The value of org.uk's don't change for me, I see no reason for them to change.

+1 to that whole post.

 

[Edwin]

Nominet's V3 solution "protects" 96% of their existing registrant base outright. Everything we're discussing here relates to the last 4% of whom half will be disappointed. Except that as Stephen posted, from his testing about 30% of .org.uk holders also own the matching .uk.

So in practice we're talking about 98.6% of all registrants getting the .uk (though some effectively needed 2 extensions to get it)

So while it's fine to argue the toss about the last 1.4%, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that "virtually all" existing registrants are protected by V3. From that point of view, it's a good solution with a few inevitable exceptions - not the disaster being portrayed by the tone of many of the posts on this thread.

 

[Edwin]

Also, the way the October 28 cutoff date works, there's no point in anyone rushing in to squat on existing .org.uk with no matching .co.uk (which is the case for most non-generic .org.uk domains) since doing so won't create any rights to the .uk.

 

[Edwin]

Finally, there are about 100,000 .me.uk owners, virtually all of whom "lose" the who gets the .uk test. But they already figure in the total number of problem cases, which knocks the number of "real" problem cases down much, much further, to well under 1% of all registrations.

Just trying to make sure this discussion keeps things in perspective.

 

[Edwin]

But in the same sentiment as above, there are small business owners who are essentially locked out owning the "best" .co.uk because some domainers were / are asking wholly disporporiate asking prices, obviously going on the faith that the domain will mature.

Let's recast the above into a more familiar form... All it takes is changing a few words for the point to instantly collapse.

"But in the same sentiment as above, there are small business owners who are essentially locked out of owning the "best" commercial property in central London because some developers were / are asking wholly disproportionate asking prices, obviously going on the faith that the land will mature."

Why are domains magically a different class of asset, for which the laws of supply and demand need not apply?

 

[Systreg]

Nominet's V3 solution "protects" 96% of their existing registrant base outright. Everything we're discussing here relates to the last 4% of whom half will be disappointed. Except that as Stephen posted, from his testing about 30% of .org.uk holders also own the matching .uk.

I've just been through all the domains in my Nominet account, and I own 109 .org.uk's, of those, I own the matching .co.uk and .org.uk in 18 (19.62%) of those instances.

 

[aZooZa]

Let's recast the above into a more familiar form... All it takes is changing a few words for the point to instantly collapse.

"But in the same sentiment as above, there are small business owners who are essentially locked out of owning the "best" commercial property in central London because some developers were / are asking wholly disproportionate asking prices, obviously going on the faith that the land will mature."

Why are domains magically a different class of asset, for which the laws of supply and demand need not apply?

I truly feel sorry for you Edwin. You're diligently flogging a lot of dead horses all the time; or at best leading them to water in the hope that they might drink.

Hopefully the penny will drop soon regarding these constant and irrelevant comparisons people are making.

 

[Aegean]

A great thread...



I sympathise with pretty much if not all of what you say on this thread. The fact that .org.uk registrants have been completely ignored imo is the biggest hole in the announcement, more than the five year sunrise.

I have a client who had to go for the .org.uk (a small independent tradesman) who had to opt for it when the .co.uk domainer wanted what would have equated to months worth of profit to him. If it had been listed on DL I think it would have fetched low xxx. Ironically the domainer just dropped it so I snapped it up for him. A bit of a rarity.



But in the same sentiment as above, there are small business owners who are essentially locked out owning the "best" .co.uk because some domainers were / are asking wholly disporporiate asking prices, obviously going on the faith that the domain will mature. All domainers take different views on valuations. It's a shame that with the introduction of .uk, knowing the option that .co.uk registrants have, it offers the .org.uk registrants sod all.



Well said, the most relevant post on this thread imo. Tell me if I'm wrong, but it looks as though the millions of registrants, who lets face it are the most important stakeholders, have basically been ignored?

What was the issue with the DPA? Nominet have my email address? They have my mailing address? The DPA would be the best excuse for a cop out I think I've ever heard for something as important as this.



Yes and no. I agree that they'll definitely play third fiddle and become the least desirable option, but they're already the least desirable between .co.uk, and as .co.uk will essentially equate to the .uk, I don't see how much will change? I can't imagine domainers would split a .co.uk / .uk package... so for peeps who for whatever reason don't have the .co.uk / .uk, the .org.uk will continue be a next best, logical option.

I think the only thing that would affect .org.uk going forward is if Google alter how they're treated in the SERPs for commercial entities. Guessing how many of these websites exist I can't see them doing anything drastic in this dept.



For all my arguments over the past couple of days, I think it's fair that the .uk go to the .co.uk registrant if it HAD to go to one or other. Obviously I think there should have been better options for the lowly .org.uk registrant Well there should have better options for everyone, but I'll stop banging that drum.



+1 to that whole post.

I agree with your post MDB, but perhaps there is one factor you are overlooking.

I too have many small business customers who cannot afford to pay the prices demanded. This has always been a major problem for British businesses and consequently many of my own small business clients have had to settle for 'second best' or less appealing domains.

However, these guys on here are not acting in the interest of British business, UK domain requirements or anything else, they are acting in their own interests. This recent news simply means that some of these portfolio holders will be handed thousands of .uk domains on a plate. THAT is why nothing will change in the UK market. The same people that have been holding businesses to ransom on .co.uk domains will now be able to do that with the new .uk domains.

I do understand why they are doing it and why they want to protect their investments, but it has absolutely nothing to do with doing business online or assisting UK business owners in a positive way. They're protecting themselves and their portfolios of names, if you bear that in mind then most of the double standards, attempted market manipulation, self congratulation and hand-rubbing on these threads will make sense.

Unfortunately we have to go with it, there isn't much my business clients, or the thousands of other businesses that are pissed off with things, can do. Thats why I have bought over 100 domains here on AD, mostly for business clients, basically because they cant be registered normally and essentially I have no choice.

I'm not a domainer, these guys aren't in conflict with me personally, but I am at the forefront of frustration expressed to me by clients.

 

[Brassneck]

I agree. I think the pricing strategy of many domainers ( ie inflexible 4 figure prices) for very ordinary domains effectively killed off the chances of any secondary market in uk domain names. People hate to feel they are being held to ransom and then look elsewhere.

I imagine that nominet get a lot of grief from frustrated small businesses.

Stephen

I agree with your post MDB, but perhaps there is one factor you are overlooking.

I too have many small business customers who cannot afford to pay the prices demanded. This has always been a major problem for British businesses and consequently many of my own small business clients have had to settle for 'second best' or less appealing domains.

However, these guys on here are not acting in the interest of British business, UK domain requirements or anything else, they are acting in their own interests. This recent news simply means that some of these portfolio holders will be handed thousands of .uk domains on a plate. THAT is why nothing will change in the UK market. The same people that have been holding businesses to ransom on .co.uk domains will now be able to do that with the new .uk domains.

I do understand why they are doing it and why they want to protect their investments, but it has absolutely nothing to do with doing business online or assisting UK business owners in a positive way. They're protecting themselves and their portfolios of names, if you bear that in mind then most of the double standards, attempted market manipulation, self congratulation and hand-rubbing on these threads will make sense.

Unfortunately we have to go with it, there isn't much my business clients, or the thousands of other businesses that are pissed off with things, can do. Thats why I have bought over 100 domains here on AD, mostly for business clients, basically because they cant be registered normally and essentially I have no choice.

I'm not a domainer, these guys aren't in conflict with me personally, but I am at the forefront of frustration expressed to me by clients.

 

[websaway]

I agree. I think the pricing strategy of many domainers ( ie inflexible 4 figure prices) for very ordinary domains effectively killed off the chances of any secondary market in uk domain names. People hate to feel they are being held to ransom and then look elsewhere.

I imagine that nominet get a lot of grief from frustrated small businesses.

Stephen

Because the quality of a name varies between poker dot co dot uk to blockeddrainservices dot co dot uk, it would be helpful if when posting about being held to ransom you could show examples of the quality of the domains you are referring to. Four figures ranges from 1000 to 9999, again this is a huge difference in pricing.
I think an example always helps this type of argument.

 

[Brassneck]

Absolutely agree and I had been thinking of responding with similar but hadn't yet. Evidence us half a dozen of these overpriced domain names please.


(from iPhone)

Could do it very easily but since most of those I know about regularly post on here I imagine I would upset them by quoting specific domains.

Stephen.

 

[websaway]

Could do it very easily but since most of those I know about regularly post on here I imagine I would upset them by quoting specific domains.

Stephen.

You don't have to use the exact domain exchange poker for gambling.
But more precise facts do really help appreciate the point.

 

[websaway]

I new a naïve builder who really did conclude that he could do well in the building trade if he owned a lot of land, the fact that he did not actually own any land he complained,was holding him back.

 

[righthand]

"there are small business owners who are essentially locked out of owning the "best" commercial property in central London because some developers were / are asking wholly disproportionate asking prices, obviously going on the faith that the land will mature."

Why are domains magically a different class of asset, for which the laws of supply and demand need not apply?

The problem with the domain market is actually that it is not more like the property market. There is no point in property seller asking a price well above current market value, because buyer will find an alternative.

But the domain buyer often desires one name far above all others. Seller has monopoly powers. Therefore, income is maximised by refusing to sell at near current market prices, and selling only to buyers who, due to some special need, are willing to pay a multiple of market price.

We can tell that many domainers are overpricing due to the miniscule proportion of stock that many turn over each year.

I do have some sympathy for the view that domain values are underappreciated, and therefore accepting market price may be to sell cheaply. Though am not convinced that domainers, controlling a scarce resource created primarily for development rather than speculation, should have the right to make that call. Certainly not to the extent that some do, whereby prices may be dozens of times higher than would be seen at auction.

 

[Brassneck]

You don't have to use the exact domain exchange poker for gambling.
But more precise facts do really help appreciate the point.

I agree on the second sentence but don't see the point of making up an example. However if you insist this is made up - teaspoons.co.uk (£1,250).

Honestly, not too hard to find what look to be vastly overinflated prices if you look through the selling sites of some portfolio holders.

Stephen.