unfair terms in RoR dropcatcher's T&C

[Nigel]

Dropcatcher caught us one - but one we really wanted so thanks for that. I didn't book hundreds of slots because they cost £29 each and as dropcatcher has pointed out (and they clearly spell it out on their website and at the point of booking) they are non refundable. I did use one of our credits to catch a nice .co.uk the other day so thanks again.

 

[Siusaidh]

I like to think I used Dropcatcher intelligently, and with previous knowledge, having used Dropcatcher previously and found it bona fide.

So I targeted slightly below the names that would obviously be in highest demand, and I started with a small number of slots for the names that were dropping on the Monday. Obviously I was clear that you don't get refunds for those slots, and sure enough, on Monday I didn't get my target names.

So I then used all my slots on a new set of names on Tuesday, and some of them scored.

So I then used more of my remaining slots on a new set of names on Wednesday, and again I got some.

So I then used some of my gradually diminishing slots on Thursday... and so on... I expect you get the picture.

In other words, for quite a few of my slots, I got to use them FIVE times, and by the end of the week, I'd got 5 of my target domains out of 10 slots (a 50% success rate), but that was because the common sense thing was to use the slots to work for you day by day. You play the system according to its rules.

Better still, with my remaining 5 slots I am able to continue to use those, again and again, in the months ahead to get more names I want. I have already obtained one more name that way. I can carry on doing that until they're all used up.

To my way of thinking, to buy 200+ slots, and use them as 1-off use, isn't really the best use of what dropcatcher can be used for.

When you factor in that I was using the slots again and again for 5 days, in reality they were only costing me a fraction of the money for the number of shots I got. And because I am a long-term user of Dropcatcher, every single one of my slots will be used, to get me good names I want.

To my way of thinking, using Dropcatcher for a one-off gamble to get names is not the best way of using the model, and arguably a buyer then has to think hard and consider whether they are really willing to risk so much on a product that works far better my way.

I'm not trying to sound like a smartass, I'm simply trying to say: before you spend money, assess the product, and consider whether it is a best option for what you want to do.

There were other routes you could take (and WebGuru sounds like it worked great). I used four routes, rather than put all my eggs in one basket. Total Registrations worked great for me, and because I know what they have been like in the past with roll-outs, I went for my most popular domains with them. Again, no refunds, but no auctions either.

I do recognise that this transaction really didn't work well for Tim. Nevertheless, you take people as you find them. Over time, I have obtained domains I want again and again with Dropcatcher. They have provided me with an excellent service. But I've always know that I might need to use the slots multiple times, and I just get a proportion of wins. I still get my money's worth. I understand the rules. If I couldn't use the slots again, I wouldn't choose the model. Using Drop Catcher for a one-off really isn't such a good investment as planning in advance to use them 5 times for each slot, or 10 times if necessary.

I'm just trying to explain the way I think Drop Catcher works best. And for a one-off event like a big roll-out of names, I think it's best to spread bet across more than one catcher/registrar.

 

[Siusaidh]

One other thought. It would have made financial common sense for Tim to just buy 50 slots for the Monday, then use them again on Tuesday, and again on Wednesday, and again on Thursday, and again on Friday.

That way, all the names would have been covered, but you'd only be spending a fifth as much money.

That's how Drop Catcher works.

I totally admit I think it's weird that Tim got zero names. I simply don't know the names, the demand, and I don't know the facts. But Tim's methodology, in my view, wasn't ideal. Why spend £7500 up front, when you have got the same product for £1300 using my system, of re-using the same slots day-by-day that week?

 

[RobM]

I very much doubt the domains that were backordered were the type that would have been 'available' for Tuesday booking at the end of Monday. Or could multiple people place backorders with their slots?

 

[Murray]

That way, all the names would have been covered, but you'd only be spending a fifth as much money.

Was it not first come first served? + wasn't there a cut off date for bookings (there was most places)

 

[Murray]

Please could someone tell me what I can do to make it more clear than this.

That's clear

What wasn't clear was with how the RoR release worked it was going to be very difficult to order a list and catch with much success

If catch bounties forced you to chase all the best domains, it made it much more likely you wouldn't catch anything

Should OP have done his research, yes, was it a good idea to buy so many catch credits, certainly no

Is it good to offer a service where you can buy bulk, offer no refunds, with virtually no chance of success (depending on the type of names booked) no

You're profiting on people being stupid rather than offering a good service

Just my thoughts (of which I appreciate I am sharing too many atm on here)

 

[donton]

That's clear

What wasn't clear was with how the RoR release worked it was going to be very difficult to order a list and catch with much success

If catch bounties forced you to chase all the best domains, it made it much more likely you wouldn't catch anything

Should OP have done his research, yes, was it a good idea to buy so many catch credits, certainly no

Is it good to offer a service where you can buy bulk, offer no refunds, with virtually no chance of success (depending on the type of names booked) no

You're profiting on people being stupid rather than offering a good service

Just my thoughts (of which I appreciate I am sharing too many atm on here)

Profiteering off people being stupid would be to mention the no refund policy fleetingly in the terms and conditions. That’s not the case here, it’s made absolutely crystal clear on multiple pages throughout the site and at point of purchase.

Some of the arguments in this thread are nuts. By the logic being bandied about, anyone who has ever bought a lottery ticket should be entitled to a refund for any ticket they bought that didn’t win. Domain catching is not an exact science and while the chances of landing a premium domain are probably higher than winning the lottery, it’s still a complete gamble with no guarantee whatsoever.

Oh and something something the lottery is morally repugnant

 

[Murray]

Profiteering off people being stupid would be to mention the no refund policy fleetingly in the terms and conditions. That’s not the case here, it’s made absolutely crystal clear on multiple pages throughout the site and at point of purchase.t

Yep, I said that, that's not what's being argued

 

[tomclowes]

Profiteering off people being stupid would be to mention the no refund policy fleetingly in the terms and conditions. That’s not the case here, it’s made absolutely crystal clear on multiple pages throughout the site and at point of purchase.

Some of the arguments in this thread are nuts. By the logic being bandied about, anyone who has ever bought a lottery ticket should be entitled to a refund for any ticket they bought that didn’t win. Domain catching is not an exact science and while the chances of landing a premium domain are probably higher than winning the lottery, it’s still a complete gamble with no guarantee whatsoever.

Oh and something something the lottery is morally repugnant

If I sold lottery tickets and someone came in and bought a stupid amount of tickets.. I would absolutely question as to whether they fully understood what they were buying and their chances of success.

The comments here seem to be arguing the obvious points that people are no longer debating. Are the real questions not still:

- Tim, why did you ignore the obvious terms?
- Dropcatcher, why didn’t you talk to Tim in advance of the drop?

 

[donton]

Yep, I said that, that's not what's being argued

You said he’s profiting off people being stupid, which is incorrect (and I doubt the op would appreciate that either.) DC profits off anyone who books a catch with them - including me, including @Nigel, and including the bloke who spent 7k or whatever it was.

And fwiw I also think you’re wrong because in my opinion, DC offers a decent service.

It’s not for DC to decide what domains their users have “virtually no chance of success” in catching.

You pays your money and takes your chances. You also get told countless times it’s non refundable. Could not be clearer.

 

[Murray]

And fwiw I also think you’re wrong because in my opinion, DC offers a decent service.

I'm sure they do for general drops, but bulk catching RoR was a tough ask and unlikely to go well (unless they were mostly uncontested names)

I'm not calling OP stupid, just their decision in this instance

Non-refundable = clear,

Just how unlikely they would be to succeed = one would presume unclear to OP, but clear to DropCatcher

It’s not for DC to decide what domains their users have “virtually no chance of success” in catching.

That's whats black and white for some, grey to others.

 

[diablo]

I did acknowledge that nothing illegal had occurred and that the thread starter was naive to spend so much with no guarantees. As for my assertion that it's morally repugnant, my compass obviously points to a different place than yours.

Agreed.

 

[Sean]

withdrawn

 

[Sean]

withdrawn...

 

[tim171080]

- Tim, why did you ignore the obvious terms?
- Dropcatcher, why didn’t you talk to Tim in advance of the drop?

I wouldn't say I ignored them, ignoring would mean that I was aware of them and then decided not to take them into account.
Truth is, I was naive (or stupid) enough, not to thoroughly read through their T&Cs or other parts of their website. 3 reasons for this (one more stupid than the other):
1.) I was getting my list ready very late, so I was in a hurry.
2.) Then the order process did not work properly, so I had to contact Simon via email, and he accepted my orders via email CSV-file.
3.) I know dropcatching in the .de and gTLDs spheres since 2004, I used all 5 relevant catchers for .de, at least 8 relevant catchers for .com. And guess what, NONE of them ever had the custom to keep the customers' money if they did not succeed. So I simply did not expect such a term.

None of this is an excuse. It's just plain stupidity. Nonetheless, I have a legal point that has nothing to do with this argument and that I will not elaborate here.

 

[donton]

I wouldn't say I ignored them, ignoring would mean that I was aware of them and then decided not to take them into account.
Truth is, I was naive (or stupid) enough, not to thoroughly read through their T&Cs or other parts of their website. 3 reasons for this (one more stupid than the other):
1.) I was getting my list ready very late, so I was in a hurry.
2.) Then the order process did not work properly, so I had to contact Simon via email, and he accepted my orders via email CSV-file.
3.) I know dropcatching in the .de and gTLDs spheres since 2004, I used all 5 relevant catchers for .de, at least 8 relevant catchers for .com. And guess what, NONE of them ever had the custom to keep the customers' money if they did not succeed. So I simply did not expect such a term.

None of this is an excuse. It's just plain stupidity. Nonetheless, I have a legal point that has nothing to do with this argument and that I will not elaborate here.

Other parts of the website being part of the checkout flow where you had to tick “I understand that Dropcatcher does not offer cash refunds”?

Bowing out of this thread now, can’t believe what I’m reading here.

 

[tomclowes]

I wouldn't say I ignored them, ignoring would mean that I was aware of them and then decided not to take them into account.
Truth is, I was naive (or stupid) enough, not to thoroughly read through their T&Cs or other parts of their website. 3 reasons for this (one more stupid than the other):
1.) I was getting my list ready very late, so I was in a hurry.
2.) Then the order process did not work properly, so I had to contact Simon via email, and he accepted my orders via email CSV-file.
3.) I know dropcatching in the .de and gTLDs spheres since 2004, I used all 5 relevant catchers for .de, at least 8 relevant catchers for .com. And guess what, NONE of them ever had the custom to keep the customers' money if they did not succeed. So I simply did not expect such a term.

None of this is an excuse. It's just plain stupidity. Nonetheless, I have a legal point that has nothing to do with this argument and that I will not elaborate here.

Tim, for what it’s worth (sadly very little), you come across well, seem to be honest, and imo deserve a cash refund. How the law sees things I do not know but hopefully you will keep us updated.

Given that some comments on this thread imply there are laws about ‘reasonable contracts’ and the like I would assume that you have a good case.

Also.. if you placed the order via email there really is no excuse for not sending a quick ‘are you sure?’ email.

 

[ian]

I think your only chance of recourse would be if you have evidence to suggest no attempt was made to register your booked domains. Yes there is no guarantee of success but would imagine with such terms, attempts must at least be made. It was said that these bookings were very last minute and if 'first come first serve' it would suggest lower perceived quality domains so I'm surprised none were registered. Obviously unaware of the facts so just my thoughts. I'd just ask whether that 7k in anyway paid for a service rendered, and as a business, whether a negotiated refund might be most sensible all round. Hope it gets resolved.